Hello all,

I just got my 1st resonator off of Craigslist - a Rogue Classic brass body roundneck.  I've done a bit of research on improvements and know the main recommendation is upgrading the cone, which I will do at some point.  In general, the opinions on this guitar are pretty good, for being a cheap import at least, so I jumped on it when I found it on CL.

My initial impressions of it were that it sounded pretty decent, but had no sustain on the two lowest strings in particular. The higher strings sounded pretty good but could be better.  It was strung with the strings over the top of the tailpiece.  Last night I changed them to under and it really made an improvement across the board.  I've read posts here where some said it made no difference to their ears and that the geometry works out about the same, but that was not my experience or my observation.

I checked the neck and it had excessive relief, so I brought it down to about .007" clearance at the 7th fret with a straight edge laid on frets 1-20ish.  I want to fingerpick and fret but the neck angle is so high that this is a problem.  When I fret it, the string pulls out of tune due to the distance it is pushed down.  The action is so high that fretting is too much of a stress on my hand for good playing (and happy hands).   I  would like to adjust the neck, but on taking it apart last night, it is not a bolt-on neck that I could easily remove and rework.  It appears to be a dovetail joint.

The frets seem pretty high, not so much to my sight, but when I put a capo on, the lowest (bass) string will pull way out of tune.  When I fret this string with my finger, I can pull it further out of tune just by pressing harder between the frets.  I can't do that on any of my other guitars

The cone sat flat in it's support well.  Tapping on it while putting a little downpressure showed no points of no-contact.  

The biscuit has a really cheap looking saddle.  I'd like to replace this with better wood or other, but it seems to be stuck in the biscuit pretty good.  These are supposed to be replacable, right?

That's about it for now.  I bought it with modifications in mind, pretty much what I do with all my stuff.  I do think it sounds pretty decent with the slide, particularly after reorienting the strings.    So, the main questions:

1. Any suggestions on how to reduce the neck angle?
2. Any suggestions on replacing the cheap biscuit wood? (I will also be replacing the plastic nut, but that's easy...)

Thanks

Getting the wood out of the saddle should be easy - be brave. Get a small flathead screwdriver and lever it out - but are you sure the saddle is the problem? Most woods are OK and harden up at the pressure points. Is it cut badly? If not leave it and work on the 'real' problems.
I think you should look at the nut - get it as low as you can without it 'fretting out' at fret 1. You might look at a higher gauge strings e.g. 12-54+? What do you have now? The pressing down too hard issue is possibly your technique as well - stop going to the gym. Reducing neck angle may require a neck reset - I could do it, but you might not be able to - take it to a guitar tech. Understringing is not an answer - it is papering over the cracks. If you can get your guitar sounding good 'properly strung', you are going the right way.
Good luck, TT

The neck is not a dovetail joint, it has a dowelstick that runs down tot the tailpiece, and posts under the stick bracing it. To reduce string height you have two choices, change the neck angle or lower the saddle height, Do a search on this and you'll find a lot of useful info on the web. The Rogue and Johnson metal bodies can be made to play and sound good, but it takes some work to do. If you are not comfortable taking it apart and working on it yourself you may want to just trade it for one that is set up well. Taking it to a tech to get set up could easily cost as much as you paid for the guitar. Good luck with it.

I agree with Tom (hat) like here is one for $325.00  http://www.resohangout.com/classified/4372  this is a good price.

I am comfortable working on my own instruments and am willing to risk screwing up an inexpensive instrument in an effort to improve it.  Worse comes to worse, I learn what not to do.  If anyone could give me a good link to learn about removing and/or reworking this type of neck, I'd appreciate it.

Reworking the nut is usually one of the 1st things I do, but with the neck angle being high, I wanted to wait until I fixed that issue before doing the nut, because I do like to set the nut as low as possible.  

The saddle is slotted poorly, all of my strings slant toward the bass string side going toward the biscuit.  I keep hitting frets when I slide on the 1st string.   Soft wood may harden up at pressure points, but the rest of the wood is still soft and I can't help but think that this will reduce the vibration transmitted to the biscuit. 

Regarding fretting too strongly, I wish I had too much strength for my own good.  Quite the opposite, I struggle with hand tendon issues and I need all of my instruments to be as easy to fret as possible.  The problem I am having with strings pulling out of tune (other than neck angle) happen when I put on the capo, which grips like a pit bull.  

I wish I had been aware of the classifieds on this forum, I'd surely have found my reso much sooner.  

Regarding understringing, I did not know there was a "right" way, based on what I've read in some posts on this forum.... 

Thanks for the help.

If, as hat says, it does have a neckstick, that makes things easier. They are fairly straightforward to take out, but may require some fiddly finishing work.

The neckstick should be screwed in place by four or five screws under the fret dots over the soundboard, and by two screws in the cone well, and possibly one from the strap pin. Once these are all out, the neck and neckstick should just pull from the body - there should be no glue or other joints.

I would avoid taking wood from the heel to adjust the neck angle, as you will adversely affect the intonation, unless it already plays flat (which is unlikely). If you were to shave a mm from the neckstick where it screws to the front bit of the well, and a couple of mm off from where it screws to the rear of the well, you should find that will make an adjustment to the neck angle when screwed back on (and with correctly sized props under it). That may also give you a small gap between the heel and body at the fretboard end - I wouldn't worry about it if it fits OK and plays better, but you might then want to shave a tiny bit of wood from the bottom of the heel to make it fit closer to the body.

You might get some better advice, but that what I've done before and its worked for me.

TT

well, I don't have a good link, but I can give you a few pointers based on my own experiance. As you pull the coverplate and cone out, just pay attention to how the cone and cover are oriented, so you can put it back the same way.To get the neck loose from the body the first thing you'll need to do is check inside the body, under the fretboard. There are USUALLY several screws hidden by the fret markers that are either screwed directly into the body, or into a piece of plywood underneath the fretboard extension. Once you verify that there are screws, you'll need to very carefully remove the pearl dots from blocking the screws. Remember, you can buy replacement pearl, but if you hose up the fretboard, well thats a different matter.Just don't do it. Once you get the screws out, go inside the body. You'll see two or maybe three wooden pads (mushrooms) between the back of the body, and the neck stick. Also check at the tail block for a seperate piece of wood between the neck stick and body at the tailpiece end of the body. Sometimes thre is a filler, sometimes not. Either way the tailpiece screw needs out. ( you should've taken it out already when you pulled the coverplate off.) Carefully lossen the mushrooms, and wiggle them out of the body, noting where each is located. Later on, you can google the 'Mushroom Mod' that will help get things back together. At this point, you should have the neck where you can pull it free of the body. If not, you've missed something. Once you get the neck out nad see how the whole thing is designed, it's pretty intuitive in how to shim/cut/brace to get the neck angle where you want it. Remember that once under tension things will pull up a little, so allow fo it. good luck....

Thanks, gents.  I should be able to make some decent headway with this info.  I have already had the coverplate and cone out and don't remember any features that made me think that there was a particular orientation that I needed to make note of.  If so, I have surely lost it from the 1st time.

I'll tackle it this weekend and will be posting back with results (or more likely, more questions) 

I haven't gotten around to working on it yet, but I did search for MUSHROOM MOD and while I did get a good number of results, they only mention it but do not actually give any details about what is involved.  

Anyone have a good link for this mod?

For any of you that both fret and slide, what string height do you prefer at the 12th fret?   As it is, I have about .135" on the average at the 12th fret without the strings capo'd on the 1st fret, which from what I can tell is not far from typical. 

I forgot to answer an earlier question on string gauge.  the 1st string measures @ .014-.015" diameter

Edited by - timsch on 07/27/2012 22:12:01

The 'mushroom mod' is not applicable in this case. This refers to taking out (what in some cases is ) a superfluous pit prop 'mushroom' from a tricone.

TT

Thanks again for the very useful info on removing the neck.  I made the mods to the neck and the results are workable. I foolishly went for the full amount of material I wanted to remove all at once based on my calculations and overdid it a bit perhaps, but didn't screw anything up beyond repair.

I planned on putting in a new saddle in the biscuit, but looking at the Stewmac catalog I see only a biscuit/saddle combo and other research indicates that the saddles are typically glued into the biscuit, which seems to be my case.  I don't mind trying to get the saddle out, but getting a new biscuit/saddle combo is fine too.   I want to increase the break angle since mine is very low right now.  A taller saddle will take care of this.

The biscuit/saddle at Stewmac (http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Nuts,_saddles/Resonator_nuts,_saddles/Maple_Biscuit-Bridge.html) lists a height of 9/16".  I need to know how that height is measured.  

Is it from the top of the biscuit to the top of the saddle?  My current one and it measures about 1/4" from the top of the biscuit to the top of the saddle.  9/16 would give me plenty of room to work with if this is the case.

Hello, hello, hello...is there anybody in there?  Just nod if you can hear me....

The main question from my last post:

The biscuit/saddle at Stewmac (http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Nuts,_saddles/Resonator_nuts,_saddles/Maple_Biscuit-Bridge.html) lists a height of 9/16".  I need to know how that height is measured. 

thanks

Are you sure you need to adjust the break angle? If its too high, too much pressure on the cone will also make it dull, and increase the chance of it collapsing too. If you do increase the break angle, the action will be higher - maybe too high?
On my first saddle / bridge replacement, I was a bit hung up about materials and exact measurements - the measurements you've provided don't mean much to me without seeing the guitar. Just order the saddle, and when get it, my guess is it will be too big (hopefully) and will need lowering.
If its pre-slotted, remove the excess wood from the bottom (see other recent threads for how to do this). Nowadays, I cut mine from anything suitable lying around the garage (brass slide bolts / hardwood strips), if needed I sand / file it 'til its fits in the saddle. I measure the slots by eye, cut the slots with a sharp knife, and compensate the 'b' string using a hand file. All good, cheap fun. My OMI metal dobro with home made neckstick, nut and brass saddle sounds JUST AS GOOD as ANYONE'S dobro (IMO....).
TT

Although I don't work at Stewart-MacDonald, I would guess that the height of the biscuit/saddle is measured from the bottom to the top.  You should definitely contact them directly and get the answer straight from them rather than having us guess for you.

Thanks for the answers guys.


Deuce,

The angle is so low that the tailpiece practically hits the cone cover. The only thing keeping it off of the cover are the ball ends of the strings that actually do rest on the cover. When I restrung it so that the strings went under the tailpiece with the ball ends above it, it sounded much better. However, I was told that restringing like this wasn't the right way to go about it, so now I am looking to use a taller saddle to get this. I have already modified the neck to lower the action and I need the taller saddle now to raise the action as well.

I am all for making my own saddle. The only hesitation is that the original may be glued into the biscuit. how have you removed your saddles before if they had been glued? have you ever damaged the biscuit?


Brad,
I just assumed that it was a standard measurement that a reso veteran would likely be familiar with. I will contact stewmac

Last time I took a glued saddle from a bridge was last week. I had superglued it in myself thinking it was perfect but changed my mind. I took a thin sharp screwdriver edge, and with the biscuit in a vice, gave the join a small tap to get it going, then kept tapping til it came out. The saddle is damaged a bit, but the biscuit is fine.

I've just bought a sollophonic resolectric. It is understrung too, but that is because the tailpiece gets close to the saddle. If the tailpiece was shorter, it may not need understringing. If your guitar sounds better understrung, go for it - normal stringing  is just best practice really.

TT