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Rockygap

United States
Joined 6/6/2011
37 Posts

Online

08/06/2012 14:51:53  View Rockygap's Photo Albums  Reply with Quote

NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- Gibson Guitar Corp. has agreed to pay a fine for illegally importing exotic wood from Madagascar and India, the U.S. government said Monday.

Gibson will pay a $300,000 penalty to avoid criminal charges for importing ebony and rosewood in violation of the Lacey Act, which prohibits the acquisition of plant products that are protected in other countries, the Department of Justice said in a statement.

In this case, Gibson was accused of illegally importing ebony from Madagascar and India, as well as rosewood from India.

The guitar maker will also have to make a "community service payment" of $50,000 to the U.S. National Fish and Wildlife Foundation to promote conservation and development of tree species used in making musical instruments.

The company also will withdraw its claims to the $262,000 worth of exotic woods seized by federal authorities, said the Department of Justice.

Webb

United States
Joined 10/9/2011
640 Posts

08/06/2012 15:11:12  View Webb's MP3 Archive  View Webb's Photo Albums  View Webb's Blog    Reply with Quote

It's all political. Of course, I think guitar manufacturers should try to get back to using domestic woods anyway. Hard to do that with Ebony and Rosewood though, and I love both. But, it's still al political. This is a new age, where, if you're in business and don't support the administration, or don't fit his plans, then you're going down. Not being political here, just stating fact based on what my industry is going through right now. They're making criminals out of everyone who doesn't agree with them or who is in competition with those who do. Sad times.

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resopluker

Joined 1/3/2010
102 Posts

08/06/2012 15:41:12  Reply with Quote

ZZZzzzz...... )(&%#% wake me later pls

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oldredneck57Players Union Member

United States
Joined 8/3/2008
242 Posts

08/06/2012 16:00:55  View oldredneck57's Photo Albums  Reply with Quote

Extortion is what it was. 

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Grizz

United States
Joined 12/22/2009
7619 Posts

08/06/2012 17:54:13  View Grizz's MP3 Archive  View Grizz's Photo Albums  View Grizz's Blog  Reply with Quote

quote:
Originally posted by Webb

I think guitar manufacturers should try to get back to using domestic woods anyway. Hard to do that with Ebony and Rosewood though, and I love both.


I agree. I think people are mesmerized by beauty and a name instead of quality of the build and sound. Here is what I mean. Rosewood is extremely prone to cracking. Fact. Let me put this up for your consideration.

COLLING'S CLARENCE WHITE MODEL (1998) 

EC except 3 repaired back cracks, double bound D body, Adirondack spruce top, large sound hole, herringbone top trim, scalloped braces, nice looking Brazilian rosewood back and sides, 14 fret mahogany neck, bound ebony fret board, side dot markers, ebony bridge, long (compensated) saddle, dalmatian tortoise plastic pick guard, head stock overlay features logo inlay, Waverly open gear tuners, huge (HUGE) sound, 1-3/4" nut, 25-1/2" scale, with OHSC, $6,000.00 

Now those of you who are familiar with acoustic guitars know Colling's is a high end pricey guitar but it begs the question, just how good is the wood chosen for this besides it's inherent beauty? Personally I wouldn't own one. I have a friend with one that is not 2 years old and has/is experiencing the same issues with cracking. I would rather have a Walnut, like I do, or even one made from Pallets (most likely Oak) like Bob Taylor built. I am more impressed by sound than beauty when it comes to choosing my instruments.The sound, especially from the resonator, is more in the hands of the builder than anything else anyway. tongue I say KISS big

 


Edited by - Grizz on 08/06/2012 18:03:07

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Short Mountain GuitarsLLC

United States
Joined 12/15/2010
104 Posts

08/07/2012 04:05:30  View Short Mountain GuitarsLLC's Photo Albums  Reply with Quote

Well, let me add my 2 cents worth,  Brazilian is very prone to wood checks, I will not even warranty a guitar built from this. That being said,much of any  Brazilian you find out there now is bottom of the barrel,and there is no way to know if it will check or not untill its built. Many of us Luthiers have spread super glue on it before we even work it.   East indian is much more user friendly  and much less brittle. and if you know what you are doing, it is very hard to tell the diff. between the two sound wise. As for folks trying to buy guitars made from domestic species, I love it,but its a hard sell untill they actually hear it and play it

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Webb

United States
Joined 10/9/2011
640 Posts

08/07/2012 06:40:21  View Webb's MP3 Archive  View Webb's Photo Albums  View Webb's Blog    Reply with Quote

quote:
Originally posted by luthier615

Well, let me add my 2 cents worth,  Brazilian is very prone to wood checks, I will not even warranty a guitar built from this. That being said,much of any  Brazilian you find out there now is bottom of the barrel,and there is no way to know if it will check or not untill its built. Many of us Luthiers have spread super glue on it before we even work it.   East indian is much more user friendly  and much less brittle. and if you know what you are doing, it is very hard to tell the diff. between the two sound wise. As for folks trying to buy guitars made from domestic species, I love it,but its a hard sell until they actually hear it and play it


You're probably right, but we should all be trying to get back there. I think more people are getting back to domestic wood, at least from all the people I know recently who have bought custom instruments.

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Grizz

United States
Joined 12/22/2009
7619 Posts

08/07/2012 08:41:20  View Grizz's MP3 Archive  View Grizz's Photo Albums  View Grizz's Blog  Reply with Quote

I don't know. J.D. Meyers has them lined up to buy his BRW guitars. He has some of the most beautiful Rosewood I have ever seen. But knowing what I do now if I could I would never invest (I'm guessing here), $5-$6,000 on a guitar knowing it's potential to crack. We are all mesmerized by their beauty but in my case I will let common sense rule. I believe the same holds true, and correct me if you think I am wrong, for highly figured wood such as burled  Myrtlewood especially in the hands of a builder who is not well versed in using these type of woods. I mean it's not like you building a table there are un-natural radius's required of the wood on a guitar. My .02

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Slideman1939

United States
Joined 8/6/2008
1019 Posts

08/07/2012 10:01:52  View Slideman1939's Photo Albums  Reply with Quote

GETTING BACK TO THE ORIGINAL SUBJECT (Gibson's fine): there are many examples of the current administration's unfriendliness to local and small business with excessive regulations, etc. Gibson done be "Barakawhupped" and Obamacized. Henry J. (the president of gibson) is a republican, contributes to state level fundraisers, and has been mildly critical of current anti-business policies. Chris Martin IV is a Democrat and even though the importation of the same woods is involved in their business it is highly unlikely that the Martin plant will also see a similar raid by the armed storm troopers, yelling "Federal Agent" and seizing their woodpile. So Obama managed to hurt Gibson to the tune of a half million ($262,000 sieze of Gibson's property PLUS a "fine" of $300,000--more than the value of the wood.Since the government is not in the exotic wood business but needs $$money$$ to support wasteful spending, there will be a Federal auction of siezed goods. They will RE-SELL Gibson's siezed wood to other small luthiers or whoever will buy FOR A PROFIT----a profit on top of the excessive fine. The "Extra" fine of $50,000 to the U.S. Fish & Wildlife is ridiculous because there were no DOMESTIC trees involved----why should U.S.  F&W profit frm some wood that  has nothing to do with U.S. trees and came from another place. The final FACT is that a portion of Gibson's wood pile had been LEGALLY purchased years ago BEFORE the Lacey act existed or was enforced---but the "raid" siezed the whole pile.   SUMMARY--a Republican instrument maker did some critical speeches about the current administration and Obama kicked him for a half million because he had the power to do so----just like he had the power to ignore the wood import policies and inventory at (Democrat) C.F. Martin Co.  I am not against the Lacey act  forbidding the import of endangered wood species. I am against SELECTIVE  enforcement of the Lacey act, depending on which political party the guitar builder belongs to. It seems obvious that Gibson had to settle at this price, because the government had the power to drag it thru the courts, and double the costs, and fix the outcome with a Democratic judge. Since Obama has never owned or run a business and his previous life was given to him by scholarships, welfare,and various freebie aid programs he has no clue how many more Gibson guitars have to be sold at non-competitive higher prices to make up for the $500,000 that he took from Gibson by the excessive fine and unreasonable enforcement of the obscure Lacey law. Just the facts, M'am. Don't say anything or YOUR business may be next for the BIG FINE.

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Preston ThompsonPlayers Union Member

United States
Joined 8/7/2008
1670 Posts

08/07/2012 14:16:57  View Preston Thompson's Photo Albums  Reply with Quote

From what I understood if the fret boards had been finished in India and imported as a ready to use product, all would have been legal. The fact Gibson was to have finished the wood in it own plant in Nashville made it illegal. So to me giving the importing countries the jobs instead of Americans is not logical and I fail to see the sense of it all. But then logic ain't what it's all about, it is. Slideman got it right. Politics. You wouldn't make it on the other site. To many obamo supporters there.

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Webb

United States
Joined 10/9/2011
640 Posts

08/07/2012 14:20:08  View Webb's MP3 Archive  View Webb's Photo Albums  View Webb's Blog    Reply with Quote

quote:
Originally posted by Slideman1939

GETTING BACK TO THE ORIGINAL SUBJECT (Gibson's fine): there are many examples of the current administration's unfriendliness to local and small business with excessive regulations, etc. Gibson done be "Barakawhupped" and Obamacized. Henry J. (the president of gibson) is a republican, contributes to state level fundraisers, and has been mildly critical of current anti-business policies. Chris Martin IV is a Democrat and even though the importation of the same woods is involved in their business it is highly unlikely that the Martin plant will also see a similar raid by the armed storm troopers, yelling "Federal Agent" and seizing their woodpile. So Obama managed to hurt Gibson to the tune of a half million ($262,000 sieze of Gibson's property PLUS a "fine" of $300,000--more than the value of the wood.Since the government is not in the exotic wood business but needs $$money$$ to support wasteful spending, there will be a Federal auction of siezed goods. They will RE-SELL Gibson's siezed wood to other small luthiers or whoever will buy FOR A PROFIT----a profit on top of the excessive fine. The "Extra" fine of $50,000 to the U.S. Fish & Wildlife is ridiculous because there were no DOMESTIC trees involved----why should U.S.  F&W profit frm some wood that  has nothing to do with U.S. trees and came from another place. The final FACT is that a portion of Gibson's wood pile had been LEGALLY purchased years ago BEFORE the Lacey act existed or was enforced---but the "raid" siezed the whole pile.   SUMMARY--a Republican instrument maker did some critical speeches about the current administration and Obama kicked him for a half million because he had the power to do so----just like he had the power to ignore the wood import policies and inventory at (Democrat) C.F. Martin Co.  I am not against the Lacey act  forbidding the import of endangered wood species. I am against SELECTIVE  enforcement of the Lacey act, depending on which political party the guitar builder belongs to. It seems obvious that Gibson had to settle at this price, because the government had the power to drag it thru the courts, and double the costs, and fix the outcome with a Democratic judge. Since Obama has never owned or run a business and his previous life was given to him by scholarships, welfare,and various freebie aid programs he has no clue how many more Gibson guitars have to be sold at non-competitive higher prices to make up for the $500,000 that he took from Gibson by the excessive fine and unreasonable enforcement of the obscure Lacey law. Just the facts, M'am. Don't say anything or YOUR business may be next for the BIG FINE.



It's scary stuff, and what really bugs me is that he does this kind of crap all the while making people think he is doing just the opposite. He has robbed from the poor and given to the rich more than any president in history. You want to talk selective enforcement, you should be in my shoes. I have a small trucking company and he has literally made criminals out of over 60% of the carrier in he US in just a year and a half. It is so bad that I am in negotiations to start new business outside of trucking because if he is reelected, there will be about 5 trucking companies owning the transportation industry and most of their drivers won't speak English. This is not even a remote exaggeration of how bad it is. In fact, it doesn't even touch the surface. Our freedoms, liberties and rights have been violated beyond belief. I know I'm treading on thin ice in regards to being ousted for being too political, but you have to understand that the real nature of this beast is not politics. That is only a smokescreen. You couldn't write a script as unbelievable as what is really coming down between Washington and Wall Street. We'll soon forget about Gibson because we're about to be inundated with the loss of hundreds of thousands of small businesses and we will see unprecedented unemployment and chaos if these creeps are not stopped.

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hlpdobro

United States
Joined 8/3/2008
581 Posts

08/07/2012 15:43:59  View hlpdobro's MP3 Archive  View hlpdobro's Photo Albums  Reply with Quote

Feel free to criticize the Lacey Act...Get the congress to repeal it. That being said..Henry J. has a history of harassing dealers and competitors, often by bringing frivolous lawsuits against businesses, small and large. To my knowledge he has never won a case. It does not stop him from making life miserable for many folks in the industry.

In this case, unfortunately for Gibson there was a clear trail of internal emails warning that they had crossed the line into violation territory. Gibson chose to ignore their own counselors and they got caught.    

"In the full agreement with the Justice Department, the facts clearly show that Gibson imported illegal wood, they didn't exercise due care in checking the source of the wood, and demonstrated that they were made aware in 2008 that these types of imports would violate the law - but went ahead and continued business as usual."

I just do not have much sympathy for Gibson.   

Feel free to disagree based on the evidence. Also feel free to dislike the Lacey Act. There is probably plenty wrong with it.

h                           

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Zissou Intern

United States
Joined 2/23/2011
439 Posts

08/07/2012 16:29:29  View Zissou Intern's MP3 Archive  Reply with Quote

I hope Bill Collings, Dana Bourgeois, Paul Beard, Mike Kemnitzer, Tim Scheerhorn, Bruce Weber, and an assortment of other medium and small shop luthiers are all liberal Obama-ites or we are going to be short on Bluegrass instruments in the coming years... Unless, of course, Mitt can beat that liberal, freedom-hating leftist! By the way, how long has the Lacey Act been around? And which presidential administration signed on to that crap?!

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hlpdobro

United States
Joined 8/3/2008
581 Posts

08/07/2012 16:37:39  View hlpdobro's MP3 Archive  View hlpdobro's Photo Albums  Reply with Quote

The relevant amendment was 2008:

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Dean UpsonPlayers Union Member

United States
Joined 2/15/2009
1882 Posts

08/07/2012 17:33:26  View Dean Upson's Photo Albums  Reply with Quote

quote:
Originally posted by hlpdobro

The relevant amendment was 2008:

Yep, May of 2008 http://www.eia-global.org/lacey/P6.EIA.LaceyReport.pdf

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foxyPlayers Union Member

United States
Joined 9/20/2009
121 Posts

08/07/2012 20:02:19  View foxy's Photo Albums  View foxy's Blog  Reply with Quote

I just deleted 30 minutes of my personal opinion because I like this site and would hate to be thrown off stating my conservative thinking!!! Favorite sayings yet "Barakawhupped" and "Obamasized"!!! Slideman and Webb we are on the same wavelength for sure!!! Wake up America!!!!!!!


Edited by - foxy on 08/07/2012 20:04:29

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Grizz

United States
Joined 12/22/2009
7619 Posts

08/07/2012 20:22:02  View Grizz's MP3 Archive  View Grizz's Photo Albums  View Grizz's Blog  Reply with Quote

Great minds think alike Dave.That is exactly why I have refrained from posting my opinion. Hell I get in enough trouble. big blackeye approve

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Zissou Intern

United States
Joined 2/23/2011
439 Posts

08/07/2012 22:46:29  View Zissou Intern's MP3 Archive  Reply with Quote

Oh, the Lacey Act Came into play in May, 2008... Dangnabbit! That was under George W's watch, and here I was all ready to blame Obama. Since it was the Congress that voted on it, we have all been Pelosi-ized. And here I was thinking we were done getting bent over by her. If only the "illegal" wood had just been made into Mohan Veenas and then imported all would be good. The real problem is that no one does an sunburst like Gibson, not even the skilled 12 year-old luthiers in Mumbai can replicate a Loar Era 'burst like the Gibson craftsmen at the Opry Mills Mall. Besides, who would want a Mohan Veena? You can't play Fireball Mail worth a damn on one of those crazy things unless your name is Harry Manx. And, let's face it... he is just another one of those damn socialist Canadians. (No offense intended to our neighbors to the north, eh.)

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dobrocop1

Ireland
Joined 10/15/2009
300 Posts

08/08/2012 08:30:17  Reply with Quote

quote:
Originally posted by resopluker

ZZZzzzz...... )(&%#% wake me later pls


Dont anybody dare wake him!.........

Just wondering if the wood is for sale from the gov fed department or are they going to have it made into Furniture /windows/etc for the Agents Homes?. V.O.L.


Edited by - dobrocop1 on 08/08/2012 08:32:14

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andygladish

United States
Joined 5/18/2012
117 Posts

08/08/2012 22:55:49  Reply with Quote

I guess we've all forgotten the outrageous stuff that went on in the eight years just before anyone heard of Obama. I remember May of 2001, when my wife (who works for a branch of the Fed. Gov.) brought home a copy of what was later called the "Patriot Act." Even the most conservative folks she works with, and there are a lot, were laughing at it, it was so far out there. A terrorist strikes and all of a sudden it's the law of the land.

And they were friendly to businesses, all right. They gutted the enforcement arm that watches over the banks and everyone made money, right???

It's so bizarre that things have come to the point where Gibson's troubles are because "Those Guys" are jackbooted thugs harrassing "Us Guys."

I recently talked with a major wood importer whose opinion was that Gibson was outrageously flouting the laws, and was bound to get smacked eventually- If a local kid got drunk, grabbed his muscle car, and made donuts on Main St, would everyone say that the only reason he got arrested was because Obama hates patriotic Americans? 

Really...

Andy


Edited by - andygladish on 08/08/2012 23:05:46

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ShiftyPlayers Union Member

United States
Joined 1/15/2009
842 Posts

08/09/2012 06:17:09    Reply with Quote

There are at least two ends to all these political "Looking Glasses", and seldom does one end contain the whole truth.

Someone very wise said to believe nothing you read and about half of what you see.

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Webb

United States
Joined 10/9/2011
640 Posts

08/09/2012 08:29:10  View Webb's MP3 Archive  View Webb's Photo Albums  View Webb's Blog    Reply with Quote

quote:
Originally posted by andygladish

I guess we've all forgotten the outrageous stuff that went on in the eight years just before anyone heard of Obama. I remember May of 2001, when my wife (who works for a branch of the Fed. Gov.) brought home a copy of what was later called the "Patriot Act." Even the most conservative folks she works with, and there are a lot, were laughing at it, it was so far out there. A terrorist strikes and all of a sudden it's the law of the land.

And they were friendly to businesses, all right. They gutted the enforcement arm that watches over the banks and everyone made money, right???

It's so bizarre that things have come to the point where Gibson's troubles are because "Those Guys" are jackbooted thugs harrassing "Us Guys."

I recently talked with a major wood importer whose opinion was that Gibson was outrageously flouting the laws, and was bound to get smacked eventually- If a local kid got drunk, grabbed his muscle car, and made donuts on Main St, would everyone say that the only reason he got arrested was because Obama hates patriotic Americans? 

Really...

Andy



Patriot Act was signed into effect in Oct 26, 2001, a month and a half after 9/11, not in May, at a time when most people believed it was necessary, because the attacks were so fresh, people were scrambling to do something to avert further attacks. No one really wanted it, but most were understanding enough to realize something needed to be done to protect us. On MAy 26th 2011, Obama signed a 4 year extension of the Patriot Act, so why aren't you judging him for doing that? Furthermore, why aren't you judging him for signing into affect NDAA this past March, because that makes the Patriot Act look like penny candy in comparison. It gives the government the right to arrest anyone at anytime without due cause and keep them incarcerated permanently. Which means, if the president doesn't like what I say about him, he can put me away for good and declare me an enemy of state without a trial. The notion that Gibson was "outrageously flouting laws" is rather ludicrous. At worst, they may not have been aware of how serious the charges were because no one had previously made a big deal about it. But, this administration has gone to great lengths to throw anyone under the bus who doesn't agree with them. My business is being unjustifiably crippled but the ridiculous and needless new regulations of this administration. I'll tell you how bad it is: I had a driver who hadn't put his bill of lading number on his log book, because there was no bill of lading number for the product he was hauling. It has always been that under those circumstances, you could just enter the product or shipper, but he got written up for it and it went under our company's safety score as a "Fatigued Driving" violation!!!! This is one of the worst violations there is and has nothing to do with not putting a nonexistent number on a log book. He had just started his day off after a 15 hour break, so how can one justify charging him with fatigued driving? There is no way that anyone will survive if this kind of crap keeps up. What is worse, they have made these records available to shippers, and trial lawyers are scaring the shippers into not doing business with any carrier who has a poor safety score. So, is Gibson guilty as charged? Maybe, maybe not. But, I would venture a safe bet that it isn't an open and shut case.. These are very ugly times.

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oldredneck57Players Union Member

United States
Joined 8/3/2008
242 Posts

08/09/2012 08:36:14  View oldredneck57's Photo Albums  Reply with Quote

I think American business' are more endangered than wood. 

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Grizz

United States
Joined 12/22/2009
7619 Posts

08/09/2012 09:31:11  View Grizz's MP3 Archive  View Grizz's Photo Albums  View Grizz's Blog  Reply with Quote

quote:
Originally posted by oldredneck57

I think American business' are more endangered than wood. 


AMEN !!!!!!!!!!

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Webb

United States
Joined 10/9/2011
640 Posts

08/09/2012 11:10:46  View Webb's MP3 Archive  View Webb's Photo Albums  View Webb's Blog    Reply with Quote

quote:
Originally posted by oldredneck57

I think American business' are more endangered than wood. 


I'll say.

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SteevarinoPlayers Union Member

United States
Joined 8/4/2008
823 Posts

08/09/2012 11:23:53  View Steevarino's Classified Ads  View Steevarino's Photo Albums  View Steevarino's Blog  Reply with Quote

I don't know if you guys saw this or not, it was posted on Gibson's site a day or two ago.  Dunno, maybe my old employer is missing me, but I do get these e-mails from them, now and then, asking me to look at cool stuff on their site.

This link gives Gibson's rundown on the whole thing, and afterward there is the actual letter from the U.S. Attorney of the Dept. of Justice. They also explain the whole thing, as they see it, right down to describing (with pictures) what a fretboard is, what a fret is, etc.  If you need catching-up, here you go . . .

http://www2.gibson.com/News-Lifestyle/Features/en-us/Gibson-Comments-on-Department-of-Justice-Settlemen.aspx?utm_source=iContact&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Gibson%20Guitar%20Corp.&utm_content=Edit

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