resolover41 - Posted - 11/24/2009:  11:47:42

Hello,

coming from an acoustic guitar (round neck) background I've long had the discussion with other players regarding everyone's favorite topic: tone woods. We can talk woods all day long... most of us, anyway. But I've always wondered, just how much difference does the tone wood used in any given instrument really matter? I mean I asked my musician friend's if they thought they could really tell the difference between a high quality guitar made of mahogany vs's East Indian Rosewood, for example. I insist (to the extent that I ever insist on anything which isn't great) that nobody can really tell the difference. I know, I sound like a heretic... but it's true. At least for acoustic round neck guitars a vast majority of players couldn't tell the difference in the tone of a guitar made from Brazilian Rosewood (drool) or (at the other end of the sonic spectrum) Maple.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on the topic. Tell me how wrong I am. Everyone else does

By the way I practice what I preach... the last thing I even bothered to consider asking about when discussing purchasing the Cherry reso I'm leaning towards from Tom Warner, was the kind of wood it was constructed out of (in part because I knew it was Cherry, but I know nothing about Cherry as a tone wood other than it is not a traditional tone wood.. but I really don't care.) As long as it's a solid wood and a "good" tone wood (I don't want an Elm guitar) then it doesn't really make any difference. It's the builder that determines everything in my experience. You get the builder's guitar, you don't get a "maple" guitar. You feelin' me?

DaveInAL - Posted - 11/24/2009:  15:47:57

I'm anxious to hear what the luthiers here have to say! You say "It's the builder that determines everything in my experience." I find it hard to believe that the materials have no influence on the sound and with resonator guitars, that includes not only wood, but metal in the spider and cone.

Dave

phil dean - Posted - 11/24/2009:  17:33:56

It just seems awful strange that great musicians generally prefer one wood over the other if they don't have different sounds. Of course the builder has a lot to do with it,but, my opinion is that a lot has to do with the longevity and durability of the materials used, along with the cost of the more exotic woods. The better quality of the mill and the smoothness of the cut and ease of work is a great incentive to use the right materials and you only have to break one piece of Koa or Striped Ebony, or lay a piece of Adirondack Spruce down on a board with a little glue that comes to a sharp point and get a deep gouge to get the picture. So when you pay a lot for a guitar made from certain woods it is usually well warranted. Phil

Edited by - phil dean on 11/24/2009 17:38:13

eastmountain - Posted - 11/24/2009:  17:53:40

Tonewoods have different timbres and reflective properties, as well as different ways they vibrate. Of course bracing and thickness of woods makes a big difference too. I do think, though, that tradition has steered builders away from woods with excellent tonal properties because they aren't maple, mahogany or spruce (or occasionally cedar and koa).

I'm no expert, but my understanding is that tonewoods are less of a factor in resophonic instruments, since they are essentially speaker boxes. And then of course there are plectrums and strings, which can make dynamic changes in tone. Finally, there are the hands of the player. I don't think tonewoods make no difference, but sound is a result of many many factors, none of which is the pivotal factor.

Square Neck - Posted - 11/24/2009:  18:26:59

quote:

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Originally posted by eastmountain

I do think, though, that tradition has steered builders away from woods with excellent tonal properties because they aren't maple, mahogany or spruce (or occasionally cedar and koa).

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quote:

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Originally posted by resolover41

coming from an acoustic guitar (round neck) background

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bluedobro - Posted - 11/24/2009:  21:23:47

There is a difference in not only the wood that is used in an instrument but also the person playing the instrument. You can use the same type of wood and get different tonal qualities due to many different aspects. If you can't hear differences in different instruments even made with the same wood you just don't have the ear needed or you just aren't listening. I've listened to instruments made exactly the same with the same type of wood and some bring out great voices where I have heard at least one that had no musical tone at all almost dead, made by the same company and replicating the same instrument. It doesn't matter if you play round neck, square neck, banjo, bass or whatever there is a difference maybe you just can't hear it. Builders will use different woods and will do what you ask, so you are not at the mercy of the builder if I want a certain wood I can get it just for the asking and I have never been at the mercy of the builder since I am the buyer with the money.

RobA - Posted - 11/25/2009:  03:54:54

"But I've always wondered, just how much difference does the tone wood used in any given instrument really matter?"

A few years ago Bob Taylor of Taylor guitars built an acoustic guitar from a pallet from the back of his shop as an experiment to demonstrate the principle that it's not all about the wood. You can reference more info and details here

taylorguitars.com/Guitars/Arch...llet.html

Dana Bourgeois has written an excellent article entitled "Tapping Tonewoods - how the selection of species helps define the sound of your guitar" that is a good primer on this topic -

pantheonguitars.com

Bob Taylor makes a valid point that the design of the builder and their overall craftsmanship are just as important and arguably more important than a particular tonewood. With that said, I don't think there's any question that different tonewoods have (or can have) a profound effect on the voice of a guitar. It'd be interesting to hear from players who own 2 or more instruments with different tonewoods from the same builder. Perhaps El Dobro or others can chime in on this?

phil dean - Posted - 11/25/2009:  05:09:08

I have one Reso made of Walnut that has a great loud, booming sound really deep, almost like a regular dreadnaught, and then I have a Koa/spruce with a great tone,very pleasing and more subdued ,the volume is noticeably less than the Walnut. They are exactly the same guitars except for one thing, the wood type. The woods were ran through the same drum sander at the sawmill one peice after another so the wood is exactly the same thickness for both guitars.

Tom Jr. - Posted - 11/25/2009:  06:29:49

Great comparision Phil. Man, this is the kind of conversation that gets me excited. I agree with most here that the building technique and quality are first and foremost but there is definitely major differences in tone from different types of wood.
That being said, I think that different types of wood also are amenable to different construction styles and bracing, getting the most out of the wood's properties. Some woods need to be held together a little tighter and some can get by with minimal bracing just by virtue of the fibers and inherent strength/stiffness of each type.
I sold firewood in college and spent a lot of intimate time with many woods. They cannot possibly sound the same because they don't cut the same, split the same, burn the same, hurt the same when they fall on you. Different species of trees are as different as different races of people.
I've played sycamore, maple, walnut, maple, cherry, hickory, rosewoods, "sunken wood" etc and they all have their characteristics. Now, because of resolover badmouthing elm, I'd like to see a guitar made out of that sorry wood. I guess it is called piss elm for a reason but now I'm curious.
My dobro is made of black locust has great tone, and volume. I am quite sure that wouldn't be the case if it were pine.

Edited by - Tom Jr. on 11/25/2009 06:31:02

phil dean - Posted - 11/25/2009:  07:44:19

Now you have my curiosity peaked. I think I will do a reso from pine. Just to see how it sounds. Got any Idea of the species I ought to use Tom. I have my doubts about pine,but,who knows. Phil

Edited by - phil dean on 11/27/2009 11:30:44

fishook - Posted - 11/25/2009:  19:35:42

Wood choice make's all the difference in tone , volume , warmth , richness , low end , high end and attack . To visit the notion , there are no difference in tonal color ,..is like staggering through the dark forest with a candle .

The denseness and grain structure of the chosen wood ,...create's the tonal color of the guitar .

Edited by - fishook on 11/27/2009 11:26:49

El Dobro - Posted - 11/27/2009:  19:58:08

In my experience, the woods make a difference. If you just strum across the strings, they kind of sound the same. It's when you play that they have different responses in volumn and tone.

Tom Jr. - Posted - 11/30/2009:  13:50:50

Phil, I have seen just the pine wood for building something out. I don't know what kind it is but I was sitting around an old beat up galvanized watering trough half full of ashes and half full of well seasoned pine and a bottle or two of "fire-starter" with some friends. This stuff had been dead and stacked for over a year and was dry as a bone and you couldn't hardly start the stuff. Once it got going, it burned hot and long, like locust or hedge apple. It seemed very dense also but it was sure enough pine. The rest of the row of pine trees is still standing there down on the Ohio River. Most seasoned pine burns like a torch briefly and then is gone. If I see that fellow, I'll see if he knows what kind of pine it is. Black Pine seems to come to mind.

Dean Upson - Posted - 11/30/2009:  14:12:20

Eastern White Pine around here mostly and it has a pretty grain but it is very soft and not strong at all. I would not order a guitar made of it.

Dean Upson

Tom Jr. - Posted - 12/02/2009:  07:26:46

Another note on that sorry wood called elm. I have a fair amount of it growing down on my farm in Renfro Valley, KY and Dutch Elm disease has killed sporadically and leaves standing dead, dry firewood without any bark or much left in the way of limbs. Great for a cooking fire.
There has been a rash of elm bark thefts recently. The bark is used for ultrasound jelly and must be pretty pricey because somebody has gone through my place and stripped the bark nearly clean off of the healthy elm trees still standing. You can see the hatchet marks at the base where they start peeling it off.

eastmountain - Posted - 12/02/2009:  08:22:07

Creston Lea, guitar builder extraordinaire, uses sugar pine a lot for his solid body guitars. My '20s Supertone parlor guitar was made of solid birch with a faux mahogany finish (and solid spruce top). I think a lot of builders are hesitant to make guitars out of non-traditional woods because buyers are hesitant to pay for something that isn't a traditional tonewood. I had an big old persimmon tree in my yard that died. That could have been a good guitar. Don't know what it would sound like but it would smell good.