Duckslammer - Posted - 07/10/2012:  19:39:58

Hello!

I just got my hands on a Weissenborn style slide guitar. It's very old, approx. 3/4 size (could be a kids guitar). The tuning pegs are similar to an old lap harp. They require a tuning wrench. There is also a solid resonator in the sound hole.

Anyone know what I have here or have an idea where I can go to research?

Thanks up front!

Edited by - Duckslammer on 07/10/2012 20:02:24

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Grizz - Posted - 07/10/2012:  19:49:02

Duckslammer?? I love it. Welcome to the Hangout Brian, . Glad to have you here. You'll love this place. More help and information from a  group of terrific members than you will find anywhere else. Hands down. Photos, photos, photo's. Anyone that would be able to identify it, and there are many, many here, like I said more than any other site, they will need more than a text description to accurately tell you. You already know if it has a cone it isn't a Weissenborn.

Edited by - Grizz on 07/10/2012 19:49:58

Duckslammer - Posted - 07/10/2012:  20:08:08

Thanks, Grizz!!

I think I posted the pictures correctly this time!

Duckslammer - Posted - 07/10/2012:  20:52:45

Thanks, Grizz!!

I think I posted the pictures correctly this time!

Grizz - Posted - 07/10/2012:  22:15:08

I have seen that before and I can not for the life of me find anything in my archives. Damn. I can't remember if it was one of Hermann's or Chris Knutsen's. Chris made some really avant guarde' instruments including a guitar with a "convertible" neck. He was the built the precursor to we know and call the Weissenborn today. Actually maybe they should be referred to as Knutsen's instead of Weissenborns.   I will keep looking to see what I maybe can find from my research and will let you know. Sorry I don't have it right at hand but maybe someone else knows. 

Duckslammer - Posted - 07/11/2012:  06:48:53

Awesome Grizz!

Hopefully, I have something interesting to add to my collection! I love unusual, interesting and/or oddball instruments.

Thanks for the tip! I'll use your info to start my research!

Slidennis - Posted - 07/11/2012:  08:01:40

It looks like it may possibly be a Radiotone lap guitar.  Hard to say from the pictures on my monitor.  But the upper bouts and little resonator are good clues.

jmb3450 - Posted - 07/11/2012:  08:21:07

Duckslammer, does the cone or whatever that is in the sound hole have a connection to the strings or the bridge?  It's interesting, not clear to me what the purpose of it is.

Slidennis - Posted - 07/11/2012:  09:07:54

quote:

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Originally posted by jmb3450

Duckslammer, does the cone or whatever that is in the sound hole have a connection to the strings or the bridge?  It's interesting, not clear to me what the purpose of it is.

---

If it is what I think it is, then that is a sympathetic resonator disc.  Don't know if they ever worked though.

You can look here for more. drewdotcom.com/hollowneck/abou...tone.html

Edited by - Slidennis on 07/11/2012 09:15:19

jacknj - Posted - 07/11/2012:  09:22:07

Definitely a Radiotone or similar guitar. I have one and they are basically a child's size hollow neck style guitar. To compare them to a Weissenborn guitar

is a big stretch.  The disc in the sound hole served no purpose. I rebuilt mine totally, including re-bracing the top, new tuners, some faux wood graining,

adding binding,etc. It was mostly to see if it could be made into a playable instrument. It's OK, but low volume. Perhaps with a pickup, it would be

acceptable.  As with most instruments, it does have its own "voice". I'll post some pics on my page.

Jack

Grizz - Posted - 07/11/2012:  10:21:46

Well you did it again Dennis. I was looking through everything I had and would have eventually came up with the Hollowneck link. I really like that site. I just wish he had an open forum like here.

Duckslammer - Posted - 07/11/2012:  19:17:13

Wow, thanks guys!

Dennis, that's it (almost) exactly!

The "cone" is connected under the fret board. It appears to be an attempt at a resonator!?

I only connected it to a Weissenborn, based on the neck and shape. Certainly not in the same league, quality-wise!

You guys are awesome! I can't wait to continue researching it!

Grizz - Posted - 07/11/2012:  19:43:22

It is indeed Weiussenborn/Knutsen body style. I guess someone is always trying to build a better mousetrap. Some work, some don't.

Slideman1939 - Posted - 07/11/2012:  21:37:02

I have one like the one pictured in Slidedennis picture---with the autoharp type friction pegs and the flower design around the edge and the resonator. Mine has a paper glued on the fretboard with notes at every fret, but no maker designation, nor Radiotone identification. The resonator appears to be a can mounted on a dowel stick and the dowel stick is glued to the inside BOTTOM of the guitar. so the "sympathetic" resonation/vibration has NO direct contact with the strings and only picks up vibrations from the bottom of the guitar and the interior air mass.There are no actual frets--just fret lines printed on the paper marker glued to the fretboard. There are 16 frets. The tuning designation printed on the paper right under the nut reads (highest to lowest--first string down to 6th) E-C-A-E-A-E. My motive in purchasing it (at a very low price) was that it was simply a part of PRE- Dobro history  (Rudy Dopyera worked at Weissenborn around 1921----5 years prior to co-inventing (with brother John Dopyera) the 1926 National Tri-cone.). The original National Tri-Cone was first proposed to be wood body but Rudy convinced brother John that metal (German silver) would probably have better resophonic volume than wood.  The  Radiotone-type instrument I have was purchased as a "wallhanger" and with the friction pegs does not stay in tune. The "sympathetic" resonator appears to pick up no vibrations and is simply a gimmick imitation of a dobro cone. Since it was a 'beat' wallhanger I never took the instrument seriously and was pleasently surprised to see the "twin" to my instrument and other models on that Hollowneck website. Since the heighth is only 31 inches and the width is 11 inches it is really small bodied ( compared to a real Weissenborn)  and I always assumed  this was a  mail order kiddie instrument where the guitar, bar, picks, and instruction book were sold as one low price package deal --less than $25 in 1930's money. Since they had to make a profit the actual factory manufactured cost of the guitar had to be around $13.00.One can see copies of ads for this "instruments plus lesson book all for one low price" in 1930's magazines "box ads" (4 inch) in magazines like Popular Mechanics. The trendy rage for Hawaiaan Music instruction (with instrument in the package deal) started around 1906 and Sears Roebuck bought their own instrument factory for Ukelele production to keep up with demand---which again surged in 1915. The Uke sales evolved into sales of this Weissenborn type student instrument in the late 20's/ early thirties  and then the Hawaiaan instruction plus cheap instrument  finally evolved into "faux" resonators (around 1934) where  various music houses with instruction books had the  Regal Chicago factory do a cheap private label instrument with a chrome coverplate---but underneath the bridge was glued to a wood disk. "Faux" resonator = fake resonator.  This was done to avoid being sued by the Dobro Co./ Dopyera Bros. for copyright infringement (on the cone). Dopyeras were attempting to enforce their copyright  and Shireson Co. of L.A.  were sued by Dopyeras for a 1931 imitation cone. Dobro finally won around 1935-36. The threat of court was what drove the Hawaiaan music instruction houses to create the fake dobro with no metal cone---after all they were just selling 'instrructions' and whatever cheap instrument went with it......BUT the trend lasted for 30 years ( 1906 thru 1936).   The Weissenborn shape instruments (Radiotone) above were the middle of the trend---the Ukes were the beginning---and the Faux resonators was the tail end. After 1935 the Depression was less severe, employment rose, and the public began (finally) buying better quality instruments from catalogs (Sears, Montg. Ward, Spiegel, etc.) instead  of the el cheapo student instruments "with instructions" from the ad in the back of Popular Mechanics.(1932).       I didn't mean to ramble into a history lesson BUT what the Dopyeras did successfully all ties into a FLOW from Rudy working for Weissenborn in 1921, to John's first banjo patent in 1924 (for an aluminum SPUN resonator on the back), to the 1926 Tri-cone, to the 1928 dobro to the decline of the Reso instruments in 1938-39 (due to electric guitars).  If you FOLLOW THE FLOW you see the significance of these horrible cheap Radiotone Weissenborn  student imitations. THESE WERE SELLING in 1931 (along with Dobros) while MARTIN and GIBSON sales were in the toilet--because they were premium priced and people had no money.       If  you FOLLOW THE FLOW you buy one of these for $40 and hang it on the wall as a 90 years ago memory of what influenced the sales trends of the early pre-war Dopyera  brilliance & patents & sales and changed the face of guitar music for all future generations---until 1994 when Gibson screwed it up. 

Slidennis - Posted - 07/11/2012:  21:40:07

Duckslammer, if you follow that link I gave above you will eventually see some examples which are surely your model or much closer than the above photos.  Like this one.

The Radiotone body shape is somewhat unique.  But it sounds like Jack is the expert.  He's got one and has done a lot of work on it.  

By the way does anyone know who made these?  I just know there is a connection to a group Los Angeles Hawaiian guitar teachers.  Jack, do you know if there is a connection to Knutsen or Weissenborn?

And what is the scale length on these.  I'm always wondering where the 22.5" scale came from for the electric lap steels.  And I know these Radiotones are short scale instruments that certainly pre-date the electric slide guitars.

Well, hello Slideman!  Nice to hear the history as usual.

Edited by - Slidennis on 07/11/2012 21:49:32

Grizz - Posted - 07/11/2012:  22:27:47

Slideman alluded to the lessons being sold and guitars provided. The absolute epitome of this was Ohau Publishing Company of Cleveland, Ohio owned by George Stanley. . The never made a guitar of any kind during their existence from the 1930 when Harry Stanley (Oahu) and George Bronson (Bronson) step brothers who founded the Honolulu Conservatory of Music in Flint in the late 20's. No one knows why but there was a parting of the way. Bronson was a sort of spin off company to Oahu, or rather, a direct rival company that came from the two relatives parting ways. It is as close to a Shakespearean tale as you get. Now both companies were cashing in on the Hawaiian music craze that really took off after the Panama-California Exposition at San Diego, Ca in 1915. People went nuts. Oahu had 1200 schools at one time and 200,000 students passed through the doors. The likes of which were, Lloyd Green, Buddy Emmons, Daniel Lanois and who knows what other well known musicians got their start there. Oahu closed it's doors in 1985 so over a 55 year run. Not bad. If you are interested here is a great link with a lot of information of these.  Michael Lee Allen posted it and I honestly don't believe he is rivaled in his knowledge of the Oahu/Bronson guitars. You will get a kick out of it. I think Harry would sell his mothers gold teeth if he could get his grubby little hands on them. BTW they did market guitars that rivaled the best out there, including Martin. Look at the photo of my 65M and 71k. And there was a model above these. The Oahu Deluxe and the Bronson Honolulu Master. Both commanding a good price today of at least $3500. My 71K in good shape averages $1500 today. If you take the original cost and look at the inflation calculator you will see what they would sell for today. These are wonderful instruments from the "parlor"/"student" models on up. They were manufactured by Kay, Stromberg Visonette, Harmony, Regal and God knows who else. The did not try to make a real or fake Reso however they did also cash in on the Electric Lap Steel Market. Units being built by some of the best of their day, such as,  Richenbacker, Valco, Suipro, etc. etc. We have a total of 5 of their instruments, 4 Oahu acoustic, one Oahy Electric Lap Steel and one Bronson acoustic..They are like Pringles, you can't have just one I love them all. Check out the photos on my homepage. 

Edited by - Grizz on 07/11/2012 22:29:50

Slidennis - Posted - 07/11/2012:  22:43:44

Hey Grizz, maybe you can clear this up for me then.  I know that Valco made a lot of the Oahu electric lap steels.  My impression has always been that Oahu was one of the brands that Louis Dopyera and his partners bought some time around WWII and that they were just banking on the Oahu brand in the marketplace to spread out their product placement.  Was Oahu Publishing still a working marketing organization for guitars after the war?  Or did they get folded into Valco?

And back to the original subject of Radiotone.  Were Shireson Brothers behind Radiotone by any chance? Anybody know?

Dennis

Edited by - Slidennis on 07/11/2012 22:45:49

Grizz - Posted - 07/11/2012:  23:17:14

To the best of my knowledge the Dopyera's had no interest in the Oahu Publishing Company. I believe Harry had the business until the doors closed. I know that George continued to teach in Detroit until the mid fifties. Some of his branded  Electric Lap Steels are highly prized even over the Oahu's. But then again they were more rare. While most Oahu electrics were probably also made by the same guitar factories as their acoustics, the Bronson electrics was a different story. It seems George Bronson could see the writing on the wall and he knew the Hawaiian guitar style had a future apart from the acoustic, and he sought out the best makers he could. The electric lap steel was the way to go for him and as a result his Melody King line is still sought after today for their tone. Most of the models that were produced under his label where made by Rickenbacker or Valco (Supro/National). And you know the story on the Vintage Ric lap steels. They damn near single handedly were responsible for the Electric Lap Steel being what it became.

Slidennis - Posted - 07/12/2012:  07:45:45

Thanks Grizz.

quote

:

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Originally posted by Grizz

 And you know the story on the Vintage Ric lap steels. They damn near single handedly were responsible for the Electric Lap Steel being what it became.

---

Yes, I do know.  I've played an early metal bodied Ric with the horseshoe pickup for the last 40+ years.  It's a screamer.

Edited by - Slidennis on 07/12/2012 07:46:51

jacknj - Posted - 07/12/2012:  08:51:28

 If I remember correctly, mine was labeled Los Angeles Hawaiian Guitar Teachers. It had the paper label fretboard. To answer Dennis' question,

the scale length on this is 21 1/2". My Gretsch lap steel is a 23" scale. Connection to the later electric lap steel scale length, I don't know. These

were probably just, as Slideman said, "kiddie" guitars. But with the short scale, you can really move around  FAST!

I agree, the Valco made lap steels (made for various companies) really scream.

I have to go rest my eyes now after reading another of Slideman's historic  dissertations .

Jack

Grizz - Posted - 07/12/2012:  09:43:43

Well Grizzogle came up with this Radiotone  guitars were distributed in the UK by James  E Dallas and Sons from the 1930s onwards. The range included arch top acoustic and electric guitars as well as more unusual instruments like archtop ukuleles, resonator guitars and double top mandolins. Most were made in Europe (typically Czechoslovakia), although some were made by Kay in Chicago. Original advertised Sale Price £6.75 Although not what you have this ia s Radiotone ad from the UK.

I also found Reference and even a Radio Tone Resonator for sale. This is a very cool 1930's Hawaiian Radio-Tone wooden resophonic guitar, made by Dobro/National/Regal. It is in very clean all original condition, has the cool "radio-tone" sound holes, a real nice original finish. It has what appears to be a very stable crack on the lower bout and belt buckle rash on the backside. Plays fine. All original except for new strings. $700 with what may be the original case - a canvas end-load case.

What's funny is that the early instruments were made in Czechoslovakia the home of none other than the Dopyera Brothers.

Here is a link to a 1935 Radio Tone Regal that looks conspicuously like the Oahu's the link states this  "This is a really cool old Regal "Radio Tone" Hawaiian guitar. I didn't know this before, but apparently these Regal-made (and sold) "Radio Tone" instruments were only for sale in a package with lessons. No wonder they are a bit scarcer than others!"   antebelluminstruments.blogspot...itar.html  And the plot thickens. It appears from what I gather that the one like Brian has was a precursor to the Dobro circa 1926. Is this maybe where John got his idea from? Conspiracy theory? Maybe not, hmmm  food for thought. Funny how the Radio Tone name became associated with Dobro.or is it? From research I have done and read all the guitar manufactures of at least the 20's, 30's and 40's were whores. Making guitars for each other, independents like Oahu et al and even then making them also available under their own name. I read somewhere that one of the major manufactures if you ordered 200 they would put any name you wanted on it.

Jack your statement " If I remember correctly, mine was labeled Los Angeles Hawaiian Guitar Teachers. It had the paper label fretboard" is in fact correct.

Edited by - Grizz on 07/12/2012 09:58:39