wmerritt76 - Posted - 08/21/2014:  12:13:12

Hey all, I am new at Dobro and loving it. However I have a question. Is it necessary for me to understand the idea of scales, keys and the root, third and fifths? I hear Troy B. Talking alot about it and its making me nervous, I play guitar and utikize any music theory to do that. Can I bring the same approach to dobro? Namely, learn tabs and chords for stuff I like. How much better of a musician could it make me to bring some music theory to the table while learning dobro? Thank yall

wlgiii - Posted - 08/21/2014:  12:29:27

It's not necessary per se; Brother Oswald did fine without even being able to read, period.  But it's all very useful and helpful.  You may not always have access to a chart and it's nice to be able to hear where the song is going and be able to go along with it.

Lounge Primate - Posted - 08/21/2014:  12:31:32

don't sweat the theory.  As you play more and more, it'll make sense and the puzzle pieces will fall together.  Theory helps a lot, but don't let it scare you from jumping in and swimming.

MarkinSonoma - Posted - 08/21/2014:  13:53:57

I really like music theory, and the additional education I have received in theory over the years I believe has made me a better musician, and dobroist. But check out the quote below, it is from an excellent interview on the Hudson Valley Bluegrass Asssociation website in 2011 with Rob Ickes. I have also posted the link so that one can read the interview.

Doug: What’s the best suggestion you have for the aspiring dobro player?

Rob: People ask me that a lot. When I teach I talk about scales, rhythm and everything. But I just learned by imitating. I was so into Mike Auldridge. That’s all I just drank and ate. I just listened to him. I stole everything he ever played on his first few solo albums and the first Seldom Scene albums. I didn’t learn scales ‘til I was older and you don’t have to learn scales. You can play music without that knowledge. I think it helps to understand a lot about music—how things are put together. Just play everyday, practice as much as you can. A lot of guys come to it later in life. When I give workshops, it’s a few kids but mainly guys who are in middle age. I just think you learn what you want to learn. Learn what you’re excited about. ‘Cause that’s what I did! I was really excited about Mike Auldridge and Jerry Douglas and Josh Graves, so I studied those guys. I learned as much as I could about their solos, fills and rhythm. I know when you’re older it’s hard to find that time that you had when you were a kid. Just listen and get out and play with people. A lot of people sit home and play with Band-In-The-Box and whatever and that’s OK but you’ve got to get out and work with people. Good people, if possible--good players.



Do as much as you can and enjoy it!

hvbluegrass.org/articles/inter...list.html

billmccloskey - Posted - 08/21/2014:  14:09:27

Wow, agree 100% with that. However, easier to do with a string instrument (especially one tuned to a chord). Harder to sound good on a trumpet without some theory. Theory will always make you a more versatile player and it is always more fun knowing what to do than stabbing in the dark. Not that I don't enjoy stabbing (and have no choice sometimes) but just having more confidence in a jam never hurts.

Robin79 - Posted - 08/21/2014:  14:09:48

I think theory is important, but I wouldn’t worry about trying to learn everything. I think thebetter you get, the more questions you begin to ask about why things are the way they at which point, theory provides the answers. In my opinion there is no substitute for actually sitting down and playing. Theory is the map, but you do n’t always need the map to explore the territory. Just my opinion fwiw.

Greg Booth - Posted - 08/21/2014:  14:45:48

If theory helps, by all means. If it is a chore, screw it. I think Rob's comments are right on the money 110%. That's how I learned, by imitating and pursuing what excited me at the time. Along the way I learned a fair amount of theory because I'm basically a nerd, but you have to enjoy and be excited about what you are doing first and foremost.

hammer-on - Posted - 08/21/2014:  21:24:45

I love that quote from Rob. The most important thing is to just play. If you just stick with playing and listening as much as you can, you will start to see/hear patterns emerge. The theory will take care of itself.

Jleavitt - Posted - 08/22/2014:  03:54:43

Like so many forum discussions there are lots of opinions and they all have merit.  I've played a guitar of one sort or another for 20 years and have never known theory.  But as I'm sure you know from playing, you can tell where a song is headed after you've played enough.  That's theory even if you haven't studied it.  Rob I gives us all permission to not study theory by confessing he didn't study theory at first.  But he does now.  Personally I've reached a point where it's fun to know WHY things work like they do.  It's making me a better musician and that's fun for me.  After all, if you're not having fun doing it, why do it?  I know lots of people who play better than me who don't know any theory per se.  Follow your heart and see where it leads.  Either way you'll find supporters here.  Play, smile...

oldredneck57 - Posted - 08/22/2014:  07:39:33

I knew little about music theory self taught standard guitar.  Never really thought about it. 

Jimmy Heffernan and Troy lessons have opened up a new world regarding theory.  I personally find it fascinating and very useful. 

va picker - Posted - 08/22/2014:  08:26:18

I remember a lesson with Mike Auldridge where he told me that learning scales was the road map to the dobro.

orvillej - Posted - 08/22/2014:  10:04:13

Being a self-taught musician myself, I agree with the "play and imitate" idea to get going on the instrument. And, certainly, much great music has been made by people that know nothing about music theory. But if you want to advance beyond a certain point in your playing you need to understand scales and chord construction. It's not rocket science. It's actually fairly simple math.

When I'm teaching, one of the most-asked questions is "how do you play minor chords on the dobro". There are two ways. Either learn a few two note combinations by rote and then never do anything but that, or learn what notes make up the chord you want to play, locate those notes on your dobro, and play them in whatever combination appeals to you. Knowledge of scales (helping you locate notes) and chord construction (knowing which notes you're looking for) opens up the whole instrument for you.

As far as I'm concerned, that's enough music theory to get you a long way down the road and what you'd need to study to learn that would fit on about 3 pages, one of which you'd need to memorize. It's not that hard. Don't let it scare you.

wmerritt76 - Posted - 08/22/2014:  10:32:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by orvillej

 

Being a self-taught musician myself, I agree with the "play and imitate" idea to get going on the instrument. And, certainly, much great music has been made by people that know nothing about music theory. But if you want to advance beyond a certain point in your playing you need to understand scales and chord construction. It's not rocket science. It's actually fairly simple math.



When I'm teaching, one of the most-asked questions is "how do you play minor chords on the dobro". There are two ways. Either learn a few two note combinations by rote and then never do anything but that, or learn what notes make up the chord you want to play, locate those notes on your dobro, and play them in whatever combination appeals to you. Knowledge of scales (helping you locate notes) and chord construction (knowing which notes you're looking for) opens up the whole instrument for you.



As far as I'm concerned, that's enough music theory to get you a long way down the road and what you'd need to study to learn that would fit on about 3 pages, one of which you'd need to memorize. It's not that hard. Don't let it scare you.

---

orvillej, 

  There have been some great comments in this thread for me to chew on, however the music theory does peak my interest and I do want to be more music literate.  So, I have a more defined question regarding what you said.  You said what I would need to study to get me 'a long ways down the road' could fit on three pages.  Are you saying I should learn the notes on the neck (assuming Open G), learn the major key Signatures, and learn the Chord Construction (Triads).  All of these things are items I have been looking into only this week and they excite me.  What I am looking to do is make a cheat sheet of the 3-4 major musical foundational theories (points) that will give me a solid music foundation that will aid my practice.  Would you say that those 3 things I mention is what I am needing?  Again those are...

1. Learn the location of the notes on the Dobro neck

2. Learn Major Key Signatures

3. Understand Chord Construction (Triads) 

wmerritt76 - Posted - 08/22/2014:  10:36:05

Thank all of you so much for your great replies! The Dobro definalty excites me and my son and we are going to have fun learning. The music theory stuff excites me as well so I will continue to take that path also. One more question to you guys,

I am looking at Jimmy Heffernan or Troy Brenningmeyer, which of the two do you guys recommend, or should I mix?

billmccloskey - Posted - 08/22/2014:  10:46:30

". Learn the location of the notes on the Dobro neck

2. Learn Major Key Signatures

3. Understand Chord Construction (Triads) "

First, base line is learn where the root notes are. Then learn the "shapes" of the scales. A major scale has a shape up and down the neck. You don't need to know the key signatures or even the note names: knowing the root note and the chord shape will allow you to transpose to any key. Just move to that keys root notes.

Once you know that, look at the song you are playing. The seventh chord will tell you what key you are in, i.e. a G7th indicates the key of C. Every note in the C scale can be played over every chord that makes up the key of C. so you can play the C scale over Cmajor, D minor, E minor, F major, G major, A minor, B diminished and it will sound good, although you might want to avoid 4th note of the scale when playing over the root chord.

If suddenly the song switches to a D7, you are now playing in the key of G and you can play any note in of the G scale over G major, A minor, B minor, C major, D major, E minor and F# diminished.

But you don't even have to keep track of what chords others are playing. As long as you know what key you are in, you can play the appropriate scale over any of the chords in that key.

Theory helps with things like that.

wmerritt76 - Posted - 08/22/2014:  11:04:39

quote:

---

Originally posted by billmccloskey

 

". Learn the location of the notes on the Dobro neck



2. Learn Major Key Signatures



3. Understand Chord Construction (Triads) "



First, base line is learn where the root notes are. Then learn the "shapes" of the scales. A major scale has a shape up and down the neck. You don't need to know the key signatures or even the note names: knowing the root note and the chord shape will allow you to transpose to any key. Just move to that keys root notes.



Once you know that, look at the song you are playing. The seventh chord will tell you what key you are in, i.e. a G7th indicates the key of C. Every note in the C scale can be played over every chord that makes up the key of C. so you can play the C scale over Cmajor, D minor, E minor, F major, G major, A minor, B diminished and it will sound good, although you might want to avoid 4th note of the scale when playing over the root chord.



If suddenly the song switches to a D7, you are now playing in the key of G and you can play any note in of the G scale over G major, A minor, B minor, C major, D major, E minor and F# diminished.



But you don't even have to keep track of what chords others are playing. As long as you know what key you are in, you can play the appropriate scale over any of the chords in that key.



Theory helps with things like that.

---

Great Advice!  One question you said "The seventh chord will tell you what key you are in, i.e. a G7th indicates the key of C"  How does moving to the G7 tell you your in C?  I am looking at C MAJOR - C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C​, and trying to see what your talking about.....i.e. I need music theory haha.   thanks

orvillej - Posted - 08/22/2014:  17:45:09

You're right, the suggestion about the dominant 7th chord telling you what key you're in is a little advanced to understand if you're not already up on chord construction and theory. Here's where I'd start...

Learn 3 major scale patterns, one with the root note on string 6, one with the root on string 5, and one with the root on string 4.

Think of each note in the major scale as a number instead of a letter. 1-2-3-4-5-6-7. Think of the 8th note as 1 again. The major chord in any key includes notes 1-3-5. Your dobro tuning is 1-3-5-1-3-5 if you think of it this way. The minor chord is 1-b3-5. By b3 I mean you lower the 3rd note one half step from the 3rd note in the major chord.

If you need to play, say, a D minor chord, put your bar at the 7th fret. Look at your top 3 strings. The note numbers of these strings is 1-3-5. You're making a D major chord. To make a D minor, lower string 2 one half step. Now figure out the letter names of those 3 notes. (hint: it's D-F-A). Now, because you are finding your way around the neck better with all your new scale knowledge, find all the places you can play combinations of at least 2 of those notes. Do this in different keys, find minor and major chords and partial minor and major chords all over your neck.

Then get a basic music theory book and get going. You can do it.

Edited by - orvillej on 08/22/2014 17:49:38

wmerritt76 - Posted - 08/22/2014:  20:44:41

Great I think I am getting it!  I will get to practice, thanks for the great pointers!

Jleavitt - Posted - 08/23/2014:  05:26:21

Hey Will. there's a huge amount of material out there. It's certainly not the only way but i started with some lessons from Troy, then bought Music Theory for Dummies (get the book physically so you also get the CD) and I got Heffernan's Scales and How to Use them. Jimmy calls it the most valuable material on his website and that's saying something. I'm sure Troy has something similar. Both these guys are big resources.  That said, look at all the support this bunch offers everyday!  (I used to log on to the news first thing every morning.  I don't do that now :))

Odds are as you play and imitate what you love hearing, curiosity will take care of the other. 

oldredneck57 - Posted - 08/23/2014:  14:48:59

Jimmy Heffernan's scales and how to use them is great.  I myself got a lot out of it. 

edcchi - Posted - 08/23/2014:  18:28:33

Lot's of good information and thoughts on this thread.  For what it's worth, i skipped over the theory and just started leaning songs with Troy B. and other sources. Lot's of fun at home with backing tracks but a  Big mistake for me in the jams. Came back to the theory after about a year of feeling left out in the jams, if i didn't know the song I did not have much to offer.  Basic theory has changed that.  But, even more important is technique.  If you decide to eschew theory for a while maybe do spend some time on technique.  When i first started playing about 3 years ago my dobro teacher here told me this and could not have been more correct. He also said timing, tempo, etc are just as important as knowing a song. A great source for technique is Mike Witcher's Right hand technique video.  Good luck and have fun.

jazzrambler - Posted - 08/24/2014:  14:40:13

I am almost 3 years into the Dobro, over 25 years on guitar. For me theory is a lot more interesting when I have practical application for it. I took a class my first year of college, nearly failed. Picked it up on my own as I started learning Jazz. Then I had the great fortune to put together a very successful band and hiring really good, schooled musicians. I'd ask what I'm sure seemed like dumb questions (but they were very tolerant since I wrote the checks) and got a theory lesson almost every gig. The fact is, knowledge is rarely a bad thing, but I've known lots of great musicians whose might not be able to read, write or explain theory, but somehow have an instinctive grasp that comes from being 'one with the instrument.' Just don't let it intimidate you, play as much as you can, and enjoy! There is great joy in learning but also in just playing.

macca - Posted - 09/01/2014:  02:24:24

I still reckon the best theory book for dobro has to be Stacy Philiips Complete Dobro Player. You would need other sources as well to learn theory but that book relates the numbers and chord construction directly to the dobro and all delivered with Phillips' wonderful sense of humor.

If you understand that book completely you probably have enough theory under your belt. Mind you, it might take dozens of rereads over a dozen years for it to all sink in!