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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: E Minor ?


Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.resohangout.com/archive/46070

Biggfoot44 - Posted - 03/21/2017:  18:49:17


There I was .... Doing some playing with daughter (RD-30) and wife ( normal guitar) playing d me John Denver. Using a guitar songbook.

Wife is calling out an E minor. I'm saying that dobros can't do that. We can retune to a minor tuninging, but we can't just shift in and out. Daughter is trying to do somthing with a slant to sort of sound closer to E minor. I decided it was past my naptime.

Is it possible at all to shift in and out of minor midsong ? If so it it somthing novices could do, or only zen masters of resonators ?

Niels Andrews - Posted - 03/21/2017:  19:02:34


Well yes you can play Em. Without retuning you can play two notes of the triad. So you can play the 1st and 5th at the E position. Or an easy one is play the root on the 3rd string and the flat 3rd on the fifth string with a slant. Just keep in mind your guitar player is playing the root note so you might want to play around with just playing the flat 3rd as an accent note without playing over the vocalist. Hope that helps?

Eustace - Posted - 03/21/2017:  19:21:58


In GBDGBD you can play an Em7 by playing an E on the second fret of the lower toned D string, then the minor third is the G string, the fifth is the B string and the 7 is the highest D string. So you have nice Em with just putting the bar on one string.


Edited by - Eustace on 03/21/2017 19:24:36

FoggyFields - Posted - 03/22/2017:  00:32:35


Fifth fret, C position, you can play 5th and 6th strings, E and G. Not a complete chord, but very easy

macmanmatty - Posted - 03/22/2017:  03:51:28


this is what open d minor (DADFAD tuning low to high) is good for. If want a minor chord play the strings with the bar across them if you want a major chord take the third string and bend it down behind the bar with one of your fingers.

otdobro - Posted - 03/22/2017:  04:26:01


Just playing a single note works for me.

Slider McGavin - Posted - 03/22/2017:  06:01:15


Depending on the song, you can also play the relative major chord, which in this case is G.  Or I will just play strings 1,3 & 4 on the 9th fret (E fret from a GBDGBD perspective).  This is basically the same thing that Niels Andrews suggested.

wlgiii - Posted - 03/22/2017:  08:26:45


Mike Auldridge has also suggested playing the relative major chord/scale, courtesy of a dobro workshop recording somewhere online.  6th tuning (C6, A6...) will easily give you the minor chord, but opens up a few other cans of worms.

MarkinSonoma - Posted - 03/22/2017:  09:47:46


Biggfoot is playing GBDGBD so C6th and A6th tunings or D minor aren't going to do him a whole lotta good. But alternate tunings are a cool thing to think about. 



E minor is in fact one of the small number of full minor chords one can play on a G tuned guitar.  



The notes of the chord are E-G-B.  A version of Em I use all the time is to bar the 1st string second fret (E) and play strings 2(B) and 3(G) open. Same deal on the bottom 3 strings. This is what Eustace is posting about above. The root (E) is not on the bottom in this version, but it works just fine.



Or you can bar string 4, 2nd fret (E) and play strings 3 (G) and 2(B) open.  



There are different places on the next to get the 1 and 5 notes of the chord as mentioned by Foggy Fields, his example being the E (1) and G (5) notes barred on the 5th fret.  Those 1 and 5 notes make up what people refer to as "power chords" typically used in rock and blues guitar.  It is neither a full major or full minor chord. If your wife is playing a full E minor - which of course she would - the open E minor where 2 fingers fret strings on the 2nd fret is one of the first chords everyone learns to play on guitar - then by playing the 1 and 5 notes on the dobro you are good to go. But as I wrote above, one can actually play a full E minor on a G tuned dobro. Use it whenever you can!



And as Jim Warren wrote, as long as you have someone playing rhythm guitar - then really - you can get away with just playing the root (E) as if you were the bass player.  Between several workshops and ResoSummit with Rob Ickes over the years, I have learned a lot watching and listening to him play one well placed note over a chord - if it works great for Rob then it will work great for the rest of us mere human dobro players.

DobroTrondheim - Posted - 03/22/2017:  12:24:43


E minor works just fine on the dobro.

Biggfoot44 - Posted - 03/22/2017:  18:48:28


Thanks guys. With both myself and daughter having backgrounds in playing brass rather than things with strings, chord theory is like trying to learn calculus from a rookie TA, who only speaks Greek.

Hats off to Foggy Fields for the answer I can presently make use of, and explain in short sentences to daughter.

And if I'm correctly understanding, my generic work arounds are :
Single string on the root note
Power chord.

macmanmatty - Posted - 03/23/2017:  05:45:36


in GBDGBD Tuning here's how to make the most common minor chords

Em (E, G, B) chord fret the 4th string on the 2nd fret with bar play strings 4, 3 and 2 you may also hit strings 5 and 6 as they are also part of the Em chord

Bm (B F# D) chord bar strings 3, 2, 1 at the 7th fret play strings 5 4 3 and 2 or if you can fret just strings 3 and 2 then you can play strings 5 4 3 2 and 1

Am ( A, C , E) chord fret strings 3 2 1 at the 9th fret and bend strings 1 and 2 behind the bar a 1/2 step or fret t all the strings at the 5th fret and pull the 4th down behind the bar till you raise it up a whole step to A play strings 4 3 2 and possibly 5 or 6 they are also part of the Am chord

Dm (D , F , A) chord fret strings 3 , 2 and 1 at the 10th fret play strings 4, 3 and 2 or if you can just fret strings 3 and 2 then you can play strings 4 3 2 1

F#m ( F# A C#) chord fret the all the strings at the second fret and pull the 4th string down to rise it up a whole step to F# play strings 4 3 2 and possibly 5 or 6 as 5 and 6 are also part of the F#m chord

C#m ( C#, E, G#) fret all the strings at the 9th fret and pull the 4th string down till it goes up a whole step fret strings 4 3 2 and possibly 5 or 6

G#m ( G# B D#) fret all the strings at the 4th fret and pull the 4th string down so it goes whole step to make the F# a G# play strings 4 3 2 and possibly 5 or 6.

BrianMac - Posted - 03/23/2017:  09:47:03


To me the important thing to come out of this discussion is to think like a dobro player. IMO that means not worrying about always playing simultaneously the root, third (major or minor) and 5th of a particular chord. Especially if someone's banging them out on a 6 string guitar or if playing with a bassist. Moving the bar from root note position to root note position and strumming can lead to a very linear tiring sound.



There are adjacent strings that give you minor 3rd intervals, and several spots that give minor thirds with the 5th too as mentioned above.



I think it's easy to focus on what a G tuned dobro won't do instead of what it will do really good! Hammer ons, pull offs and vocal like lead lines.





Even when playing alone a listeners brain will fill in notes and harmonies as needed to complete a familiar song.

DobroTrondheim - Posted - 03/23/2017:  10:29:37


You could also just strum across the strings with the bar on either the 3rd or 6th string at the ninth fret. Will give you a nice Em7 when the occasion calls for it.

hlpdobro - Posted - 03/23/2017:  10:48:43


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quote


:


Originally posted by BrianMac

 

To me the important thing to come out of this discussion is to think like a dobro player. IMO that means not worrying about always playing simultaneously the root, third (major or minor) and 5th of a particular chord.


 




When you begin to discover the G tuned dobro as a melodic instrument rather then a chordal instrument you have taken a step towards understanding and musicianship.



h

macmanmatty - Posted - 03/23/2017:  11:01:52


quote:

Originally posted by BrianMac



 

I think it's easy to focus on what a G tuned dobro won't do instead of what it will do really good! Hammer ons, pull offs and vocal like lead lines.






Even when playing alone a listeners brain will fill in notes and harmonies as needed to complete a familiar song.







 



A dobro is about the worst possible instrument for hammer ons and pull offs as,   you can only do them to the open strings G, B and D  but  I agree for vocal like lead line a dobro rocks.  Nothing  other  than a violin makes  slow melodic  songs sound sweeter.

hlpdobro - Posted - 03/23/2017:  11:14:25


quote:

Originally posted by macmanmatty



 

A dobro is about the worst possible instrument for hammer ons and pull offs as,   you can only do them to the open strings G, B and D 







Yep..on the other hand that is 6 strings a a lot of frets..if you know the technique. That's a lot of notes.

billmccloskey - Posted - 03/23/2017:  12:59:55


It is best to think about what the dobro can DO that no other instrument can do and focus on that. All instruments have limitations. Mastery is learning to make an emotional connection within the limitations. A dobro is not a great chordal instrument. But a piano can't slide between notes. A violin can slide between notes, but can't play the chords a dobro can play. When you stop trying to make a dobro a guitar, and approach it on its own terms, we begin the road to artistry. No instrument on earth can do what a dobro does. A piano can't sound like a dobro. A lap steel can't sound like a dobro. A clarinet can't sound like a dobro. 



 



There is more than a lifetime of work to uncover a small fraction of what this instrument can do. 

wlgiii - Posted - 03/23/2017:  14:20:08


And to think it all started with needing a guitar that could be heard with horns.

Biggfoot44 - Posted - 03/24/2017:  00:51:28


What's an Em7 ?
What's a Minor Third ?

If you were to hold a gun to my that I had to be melodic by the end of this year, I would need to restart playing trumpet after a 39yr layoff. At present, or reasonably extrapolating improvement arc , Dobro doing Dobro things involves slides, runs, rolls, double clutches, and vibrato . In between those accents, I'm a quasi- rythem guitar, albeit with really rich chords.

Oh, I know what the instrument is capable of. I saw Mike Aldridge multiple time, and was suitably in awe. But I'm realistic about my playing potential.

Niels Andrews - Posted - 03/24/2017:  07:15:52


I think what this illustrates is that learning scale degrees is a major progression in Dobro playing. It would take the average player about the price of a meal and the time to consume it to learn it. Then they can spend a joyous lifetime applying it. I think Troy Brenningmeyer does a great job in his understanding the fretboard covering this material and also eludes to melodic versus chordal playing. I am sure there are other good sources, but if I had to reccomend one of the most overlooked simple things it would be scale degrees and scales followed by the Nashville Number System.

Biggfoot44 - Posted - 03/24/2017:  10:11:40


So music theory is necessry thing ? About a year ago I thought it might be helpful. I bought several books, and bugged everyone in my extended internet family including music teachers with advanced degrees, until they're exasporated. And watched a buncha youtube on the subject. Admittedly not Dobro guys specifically, but the blackboard talks seemed to be applicable to music generally . And ... Nothing.

It's still as greek to me as when I started. I can't mentally relate music store theory to the basic principles of math or physics . Arbitrarily memorized factoids, Root and fifth make either a power chord or an unimaginative bass line, but no clue WHY . And that exhausts my music comprehention.

In the band ( orchestra type) world, the Composers figure the frequency relationships of the piece. The players play the music the way its written . If 30 or so players all made up their own notes, it would be anarchist cacophony.

I keep telling myself someday a light bulb will suddenly understandable, but nothing yet.

wlgiii - Posted - 03/24/2017:  10:47:20


Music theory is not necessary per se, but it helps.  In the last decade or so since I've focused more on scales, theory, regular practice, and such, and have become a much better player. However, beforehand playing was still fun in spite of  limited musical knowledge. So...



Have fun, and don't worry as much about the technical stuff initially, but as you play more you'll most likely start gravitating toward it more.

 

Niels Andrews - Posted - 03/24/2017:  11:52:13


Scale tones is not music theory. If you can count too 8 you have the scale tones.

hlpdobro - Posted - 03/24/2017:  12:11:01


Counting to 8 is math. Know which 8 scale notes to use in a key is theory. Assuming an 8 note scale of course. devil



 



h

Oboe Cadobro - Posted - 03/24/2017:  13:27:42


quote:

Originally posted by hlpdobro

Counting to 8 is math. Know which 8 scale notes to use in a key is theory. Assuming an 8 note scale of course. devil







Not sure what music theory you've been studying, but all my scales only have 7 notes...no such animal as "8"... cheeky

Biggfoot44 - Posted - 03/24/2017:  13:44:16


Sometimes it is 8, somtimes it is 12. Sometime first note counts, Sometimes it doesn't . Thirds or fifths, or whatever don't align with either numbering system.

hlpdobro - Posted - 03/24/2017:  14:05:25


I can't think of an instance where the Nashville numbering system doesn't have a suitable shorthand device for a particular chord.



Please explain. What "either numbering system" are you referring to?



h

Biggfoot44 - Posted - 03/24/2017:  14:15:07


Just took another stab, googled somthing from University of Waterloo.

Ancient Greeks in general, Pythagoras specifically studied this. Greeks dealt with * rational porportions.

But the porportions are sometimes 3/2, sometimes 5/4 .

Doubling frequency = octave.
Trippling frequency = fifth , one octave up.

Do basic math, and factor of 1.5x moved up to a fifth.
But in base 8 , 50% would be 4. In base 12 would be 6. Neither one is either 1/5 as a fraction, nor fifth in a sequence.

I learned math up to , not including calculus, basic physics, and a smattering of engineering, but music theory doesn't seem to be consistant with any of them. If this music stuff had created its own unique terminology from scratch, I suppose I could try to learn it from scratch. But seeing terminology that has real meanings in other contexts misused ( or at least inconsistantly used), just stumps and frustrates me.

hlpdobro - Posted - 03/24/2017:  14:29:42


I do this full time these days and I have no idea about how this applies to what we are actually discussing.



Carry on.



 



h

BrianMac - Posted - 03/24/2017:  15:00:08


musictheoryfundamentals.com/Mu...part1.php

Niels Andrews - Posted - 03/24/2017:  15:03:08


Do you guys want to help this guy or impress us all with your knowledge? I guess time for me to check out of here.

hlpdobro - Posted - 03/24/2017:  15:22:29


Brian's link is what the OP needs. It is spot on.



Thanks



h



 

macmanmatty - Posted - 03/25/2017:  07:31:41


7 note scales? all my scales have at least 14  notes. But,  then again the whole 12 note music standard with a  440 hz A  is  very limiting as far as music goes. Especially not non fretted instruments like the dobro. 

billmccloskey - Posted - 03/25/2017:  07:45:23


Here is how I look at theory Bigg: it is a tool that lets you improvise seamlessly and without thought over any and all chord progressions. Instead of learning solos by rote that fit particular songs, you can create your own solos and never worry if you are going to sound bad. 



First time the light came on for me was after I read Mark Levin's book on jazz theory. Good luck. 

BrianMac - Posted - 03/25/2017:  08:44:10


Fortunately I'm unenlightened so 7 notes and 440 hz A gives me enough to work on and create with for a lifetime, at least so far. cheeky

Biggfoot44 - Posted - 03/25/2017:  15:54:36


OK , I'm declaring a truce, I won't ask anything else about Chords. The more I learn, the more confused I get.

Using a dobro with open tuning, with the bar flat and perpendicular to the strings ( aka normal or basic) , can I just pretend that each position commonly known by a letter ( ie G position, C position, D position, etc ) are Notes, and play as if I were playing actual notes ? Would that be too blatently bonehead to fit in with casual playing of Old Country ?

MarkinSonoma - Posted - 03/25/2017:  16:28:48


Counting to 7 (or 8) is indeed math. But it is also, as pointed out in the link Brian shared, part of the fundamentals (or rudiments) of music theory.  



It's whatever works for you biggfoot to get the job done. I'm not real clear what you're asking for in the post above mine and the one prior with all the formulas - my eyes kind of glazed over on that one. 



If you have a music room, office, den, man cave, etc. - I highly recommend purchasing Mike Witcher's Resonator Guitar Fretboard Chart of G Major Tuning and hanging it on the wall. Best 10 bucks you'll spend this week.  I like mine so much that it is mounted in a black wood poster frame. I also have the one for D Major Tuning.  



mikewitcher.com/store/fretboar...g-tuning/



 

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