Phantom Engineer - Posted - 11/28/2022:  07:05:35

Hi, I am wondering if anyone out there has tested the LR Baggs Voiceprint DI as an alternative to the Fishman Jerry Douglas Aura pedal for "naturalizing" the sound of the Fishman Nashville pickup? The Aura seems to have had the monopoly on this function, but I am wondering if the Voiceprint wouldn't serve a similar function.  (Like many, although the Fishman Nashville pickup works great, it makes my guitar sound more like a bee buzzing to my ear than an acoustic instrument. I have heard it referred to as "quacky" but to me that electric sound is more "buzzy".)



Anyway, my understanding is that the Aura processes the "quacky" piezo signal provided from the Nashville with a set of a dozen or so presets to match the sound that the same signal generating device (the dobro) would have simultaneously generated via a dozen or so different microphones (most of them "high end"). I'm assuming the Aura accomplishes this through very high resolution equalization settings across the sound spectrum, boosting some frequencies, and cutting others. Maybe there is some compression or reverb or delay added too, but I guess it's all a trade secret.



My understanding is the Voiceprint "listens" to your guitar through an iPhone or Android phone mic via Bluetooth while also receiving the direct pickup signal via a 1/4" plug, and processes the pickup signal to match the cell phone mic, probably in a similar way to the Aura (boosting and cutting frequencies in high resolution, automatically; or maybe also adding compression or reverb or delay too). Now, it's hard to believe that a cell phone mic would be as "realistic" as the various high end mics simulated by the specific microphones imaged in the Aura. But maybe it's good enough? And maybe they have built in some compensation for the known limits of cell phone mics too? And maybe the Voiceprint provides even better, more personalized results, in the sense that it's matching your specific guitar, rather than the one Jerry and Fishman used in their laboratory to develop their preset images.



Anyway, I stumbled across a demo video of the Voiceprint (youtu.be/X5Rmiu5AVl8) (the demo discussion starts a minute and a half into the video) and it struck me as possibly a viable alternative to the Aura. I searched the Forum but didn't see any discussion on this yet. Has anybody investigated this?

Edited by - Phantom Engineer on 11/28/2022 10:10:14

MarkinSonoma - Posted - 11/28/2022:  09:36:25

I've been intrigued by the Voiceprint since it first hit the market, but since I have been using the Fishman JD Aura system for a number of years now - I haven't been intrigued enough to fork out another 400 bucks to give the Voiceprint a go. 

Though it would be cool to find a local Baggs dealer where I could bring my main dobro  in to give it a shot to see how it works with a resophonic guitar. 

Daniel Donato's D-18 in the video you linked did sound very good with the Voiceprint, and I watched another one Trey Hensley and he liked it. 

It appears to be easy to use, and being able to utilize  the microphone on a cell phone instead of recording with a relatively high end mic into a unit like the Audio Sprockets ToneDexter sure is nice.

I gleaned the following from the FAQ section on the Voiceprint website:

"Any acoustic instrument with a pickup should work with the Voiceprint DI. The default settings are optimized for steel string acoustic guitars. However, many other instruments will work just fine with these default settings."

Edited by - MarkinSonoma on 11/28/2022 09:46:46

Phantom Engineer - Posted - 11/28/2022:  10:07:18

Thanks @MarkinSonoma! At least you've confirmed to me that I'm not totally off base in thinking about it. I'm in the same boat, I just ordered a JD Aura. So, too late for me too, I can't justify throwing another $400 out there, but now I'm wondering if I would've been even better off with this gadget. In addition to "acousticizing" the tone, it offers some other magical powers that the JD Aura doesn't, such as some parametric equalization features thru the cellphone app, a mute button, a ground lift, a footswitch to scroll thru the presets, and a feedback profile hunter that sounds interesting. Yes I see Trey has also endorsed it. It would be interesting to hear a dobro player's view. If Trey has one I can't imagine his partner Rob Ickes hasn't given it a try.

Edited by - Phantom Engineer on 11/28/2022 10:11:11

BrianMac - Posted - 11/30/2022:  06:26:32

You guys have got me interested in the voiceprint DI. I use the Jd aura with Jd Fishman PU and LR Bag bags venue DI for feedback EQ.

If a good tone could be found with the voiceprint DI, I could eliminate the Venue DI in my chain, which is one less cord and 1 less battery. My IPhone is always out at performance anyway as my backing tracks are on it. A person would need to have it in hand for use of the 5 bands of parametric EQ.

Once setup, the voiceprint DI looks simpler to use and still has the single sweepable feedback cut control right on the front. If this sounded good, a person could have the same level of control as a JD Aura and a LR Baggs Venue combined for nearly half the price!

Sweetwater would allow a return within a period after the sale for any reason, you’d just have to pay for shipping, I believe. Tempting!

Edited by - BrianMac on 11/30/2022 06:28:27

Phantom Engineer - Posted - 11/30/2022:  06:49:36

@BrianMac yeah it does seem intriguing. Let me know if you get good results with it! One thing of concern that I've noticed in the Baggs demo videos on their site- the first step in doing the "voiceprint" tone-match for the acoustic guitars is that they have the player tap on the bridge. I'm of course not sure what that bridge-tapping step accomplishes exactly, but I am also concerned as to what the equivalent step might need to be for a dobro in the programming of the device. Would you need to remove the coverplate and tap on the dobro bridge insert? Or tap on the coverplate? or the dobro body? or just skip that step entirely and just use the cell phone microphone in their "Advanced" set-up mode? (My expectation is the latter.) They do show a glimpse of setting up the device with other instruments in Advanced mode, but they are all instruments with easily-tappable bridges (mandolin, violin). Anyway, good luck, have fun, and hopefully a reso player somewhere will share their experience and compare notes.

Edited by - Phantom Engineer on 11/30/2022 06:52:18

docslyd - Posted - 11/30/2022:  07:46:42

Matthew:

Not to derail your subject, but along the same lines, here's an interesting video demo that compares the Baggs Voiceprint to other pedals which utilize imaging, including the Fishman Aura, NUX Optima Air and ToneDexter.  A very technical, yet interesting, demo that you probably will enjoy watching.

youtube.com/watch?v=Df_7sMHASm4

I have been using the NUX optima air with a Schertler under the spider pickup and have been very happy with the results both into an acoustic amp and into a Bose L1. I have the Schertler setup on at least a couple guitars and it allows me the freedom to change cones, spiders or bridges as I need and simply re-stick the pickup back on without having to worry about the temperamental Fishman under saddle setup. It's also a very compact, simple and economical arrangement.

Edited by - docslyd on 11/30/2022 07:48:02

Phantom Engineer - Posted - 11/30/2022:  09:02:38

@docslyd Thanks, that seems to be right on topic. I watched the video, I guess I'm late to the whole game, this stuff is all pretty new to me but it seems people have been exploring it for decades. It was interesting to watch. I have heard resonateurs talking about the ToneDexter but I never really paid much atention before. I guess that's a very similar concept. I didn't realize it was an alternative to the JD Aura, I thought it was another thing people were adding in addition to the Aura. I like that the ToneDexter has a boost button available, that's a nice feature to have rather than having to buy a whole 'nother pedal just for that. It was also interesting to hear the NUX Optima Air, it seems like a very powerful, effective, and much less expensive option that I had not previously heard of. I wasn't convinced in his comparison tests, though. A lot of them seemed to have a lot of clipping going on, especially for the Voiceprint, so I wasn't sure it was a fair comparison. One of the first Voiceprint steps during the setting process that Baggs shows in their demo videos is adjusting levels to prevent clipping, so I'm not sure he did it correctly.

hlpdobro - Posted - 11/30/2022:  09:24:34

Might want to reach out to Rob Anderlik as he uses/has used a lot of this technology.

First hand experience and all of that.

h

docslyd - Posted - 11/30/2022:  11:10:21

Yes, I think from Rob is where I first became aware of the Optima Air. And regarding the Fishman pickup, I do believe that the pickup and the Aura pedal go more hand-in-hand as far as being matched partners in sound amplification. The demo that I posted certainly won't apply to every instrument and, I agree Matthew, that having the pedal in hand and being able to make the adjustments to your instrument can make all the difference. I'm not really sure how the pedals, other than the Fishman Aura, match appropriately to the Fishman Nashville pickup or whether that would be chasing your tail. Perhaps Howard can answer that. For my purpose, however, since I'm using the Schertler, the other "Imaging" pedals enhance what I already have onboard. I like that I can sample the sound of my instrument through a microphone and store it in the Optima Air. It gives a lot of options....Regarding "boost", I just store two similarly-eq'd settings in adjacent locations (one with more gain) and just use the footswitch to toggle between them for my needed boost.

Edited by - docslyd on 11/30/2022 11:13:44

Phantom Engineer - Posted - 11/30/2022:  11:31:55

docslyd yes that sounds very clever, to set adjacent locations to toggle for a boost! Do you have any sound demos with your reso of the NUX Optima Air that you can share, comparing the pickup sound to the processed sound? I'd be interested in hearing how it does with a reso, as opposed to a standard guitar.

hlpdobro thanks, yes I should probably check with Rob A. BTW, thanks for your excellent gear demo video! It was great to hear the clear difference that the JD Aura pedal brings to the table, compared directly to the pickup. And I enjoyed and appreciated your discussion of the rest of the pedals on your board. One thing off-topic, I think the purpose of the DI box is mainly for eliminating noise in long cable runs to the soundboard, as opposed to splitting signals for an onstage monitor amp, which is only kind of an auxiliary advantage. Overall, very helpful and enlightening and well-presented video, thanks!

hlpdobro - Posted - 11/30/2022:  11:36:17

quote:

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Originally posted by docslyd

 I'm not really sure how the pedals, other than the Fishman Aura, match appropriately to the Fishman Nashville pickup or whether that would be chasing your tail. Perhaps Howard can answer that.

---

I have no answers. For the types of gigs that I'm faced with the Aura pedal has met my needs. If it should one day fail I'll reassess. Tech always changes and gets cheaper over time.



I had a brief convo at IBMA with a Fishman dude who alluded to some some new Aura product developments. It would not surprise me to see new functionality similar to the discussion here.



h

hlpdobro - Posted - 11/30/2022:  11:42:48

quote:

---

Originally posted by Phantom Engineer

hlpdobro thanks, yes I should probably check with Rob A. BTW, thanks for your excellent gear demo video! It was great to hear the clear difference that the JD Aura pedal brings to the table, compared directly to the pickup. And I enjoyed and appreciated your discussion of the rest of the pedals on your board. One thing off-topic, I think the purpose of the DI box is mainly for eliminating noise in long cable runs to the soundboard, as opposed to splitting signals for an onstage monitor amp, which is only kind of an auxiliary advantage. Overall, very helpful and enlightening and well-presented video, thanks!

---

So many amps, like my Loudbox also have DI capabilities. I have some Americana gigs in the works where everyone is required to go "ampless" so a low impedence/balanced feed off of my board's DI beats a hiigh impedence/unbalanced instrument level feed..every time!



You become the sound dude's best friend. 



h

docslyd - Posted - 11/30/2022:  12:31:19

....sorry Matthew, I have no sound demos. Even if I did, via a smartphone video, I don't know how accurate or true to fidelity that it would be.

Terry Harris - Posted - 11/30/2022:  17:06:23

You have a smart phone??

Now that's funny

docslyd - Posted - 12/01/2022:  06:02:44

.....I said, “even IF I did....”

Phantom Engineer - Posted - 01/13/2023:  11:01:25

Well I cancelled my JD Aura order and finally got the Baggs Voiceprint in hand after waiting a couple months while it was on backorder. Although I have run into a couple bugs in the cell phone app, I'm pretty impressed with the results and capabilities that the pedal has. I'm definitely getting much more natural "acoustic" sounds from the dobro than the Fishman Nashville pickup gives without the Voiceprint. It will take a little more tweaking to get it just where I want it but it works pretty well and easily right out of the box. It also does an excellent job of finding and remembering the instrument's feedback frequencies and setting it up to reduce feedback with a turn of the knob. I'd love to be able to compare it to the JD Aura one day, hopefully I'll find a local player with one to allow that test.

JC Dobro - Posted - 01/13/2023:  15:47:41

quote:

---

Originally posted by Phantom Engineer

Well I cancelled my JD Aura order and finally got the Baggs Voiceprint in hand after waiting a couple months while it was on backorder. Although I have run into a couple bugs in the cell phone app, I'm pretty impressed with the results and capabilities that the pedal has. I'm definitely getting much more natural "acoustic" sounds from the dobro than the Fishman Nashville pickup gives without the Voiceprint. It will take a little more tweaking to get it just where I want it but it works pretty well and easily right out of the box. It also does an excellent job of finding and remembering the instrument's feedback frequencies and setting it up to reduce feedback with a turn of the knob. I'd love to be able to compare it to the JD Aura one day, hopefully I'll find a local player with one to allow that test.

---

Any comparisons you can provide would be appreciated.  Even rudimentary sound samples of the Voiceprint would be helpful.  I'm sorta' floored that these have been out 2 years now, and no resonator sound clips can be found anywhere...not even a round neck.

Good luck with it, and post up as you have more to share.  

Phantom Engineer - Posted - 01/14/2023:  10:59:48

JC Dobro  I have made a video that includes a bunch of sound demos of the voiceprints I've generated so far to compare each of them to each other, and to the sound of the pickup alone, with the Voiceprint pedal bypassed.  The video is at youtu.be/PAf-Zths1Cw
The comparisons start at about 11 minutes 45 seconds into the video. (Until then I do a lot of talking and unfortunately the talking sound level is pretty low. Hey, I'm not a video pro!)  

I hope that the video is enlightening and useful to ResoHangout members and other reso players considering this pedal. I'm pretty pleased with the results from the pedal. I'd love a chance to do a side-by-side comparison with the JD Aura if anybody in the Philadelphia PA area with a JD Aura wants to get together and test it out.

JC Dobro - Posted - 01/14/2023:  13:57:33

quote:

---

Originally posted by Phantom Engineer

JC Dobro  I have made a video that includes a bunch of sound demos of the voiceprints I've generated so far to compare each of them to each other, and to the sound of the pickup alone, with the Voiceprint pedal bypassed.  The video is at youtu.be/PAf-Zths1Cw

The comparisons start at about 11 minutes 45 seconds into the video. (Until then I do a lot of talking and unfortunately the talking sound level is pretty low. Hey, I'm not a video pro!)  



I hope that the video is enlightening and useful to ResoHangout members and other reso players considering this pedal. I'm pretty pleased with the results from the pedal. I'd love a chance to do a side-by-side comparison with the JD Aura if anybody in the Philadelphia PA area with a JD Aura wants to get together and test it out.

---

Thanks for doing these Phantom!  I like the Rosedale57 the best.  Definitely picking up some of your instrument's character.  What amp did you use?  Subjectively, the tone sounds a bit "flatter" (dynamics-wise) than what my ear hears on a JD Aura setup, but that may be your amp.  Hopefully someone in your area offers up a JD Aura for a test drive so you can do an A/B comparison for yourself.

In your continued experimentation, it might be interesting to capture a condenser mic print, to see if that adds any further character.

Great contribution to what previously had been a huge unknown (at least to me)...

Best regards

Phantom - Posted - 01/14/2023:  15:30:24

@JC Dobro Thanks! There is no amp involved with my demonstration (nor with my Voiceprints). What you hear is the signal coming out of the Voiceprint pedal (with either the Voiceprint processing bypassed or engaged). It's just my dobro coming into the pedal, and the pedal going out to my computer as the audio for the video. (There is a mixer in between that I am using as an interface to go from the 1/4" out from the Voiceprint to a USB in to my computer, but it shouldn't be changing the signal at all.)

Yeah I have a Rode N2A condenser mic. I'll try that next and see what happens. I agree, I liked The Rosedale57 print best. I am also tweaking it sone more with the EQ functions of the pedal.... it is definitely helping even more to take some of the harshness out of the high end. 

Edited by - Phantom on 01/14/2023 15:37:35

JC Dobro - Posted - 01/14/2023:  16:35:13

quote:

---

Originally posted by Phantom

@JC Dobro Thanks! There is no amp involved with my demonstration (nor with my Voiceprints). What you hear is the signal coming out of the Voiceprint pedal (with either the Voiceprint processing bypassed or engaged). It's just my dobro coming into the pedal, and the pedal going out to my computer as the audio for the video. (There is a mixer in between that I am using as an interface to go from the 1/4" out from the Voiceprint to a USB in to my computer, but it shouldn't be changing the signal at all.)

Yeah I have a Rode N2A condenser mic. I'll try that next and see what happens. I agree, I liked The Rosedale57 print best. I am also tweaking it sone more with the EQ functions of the pedal.... it is definitely helping even more to take some of the harshness out of the high end. 

---

Ah OK, I see...the "flatness" I perceived is a result of your USB direct to stock PC sound card.  A acoustic amp would give some air and open up the dynamics...perhaps by a lot...

A condenser mic print, some EQ fine tuning, thru a good acoustic amp or PA....you may be on to something cool here.  Please do keep us posted on your findings!

Edited by - JC Dobro on 01/14/2023 16:36:20

Phantom Engineer - Posted - 01/15/2023:  07:42:16

I did try making a voiceprint with my studio condenser mic R0DE NT2A last night. I was surprised to find that, while it sounded pretty good, it didn't sound as natural to me as the one I made with the Shure SM57. The NT2A voiceprint retained a lot more of that "buzzy" electric-ish sound than the SM57 voiceprint. Kind of puzzling, as I would have expected the NT2A voiceprint to be even more natural than the SM57 voiceprint.

There sure is a lot of "black box" quality to this device. I wish I understood exactly what the app is doing in the microphone-to-pickup comparison, and the processing of the differences into a voiceprint. The lesson learned so far is that it is VERY dependent on the microphone used, whether the microphone is that of different model phones or different external microphones.

As a side note, the voiceprint does not seem to be very dependent on the placement of the microphone, which I consider a positive, as the consistency takes some of the guesswork and worry out of microphone placement.

JC Dobro - Posted - 01/15/2023:  12:01:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by Phantom Engineer

I did try making a voiceprint with my studio condenser mic R0DE NT2A last night. I was surprised to find that, while it sounded pretty good, it didn't sound as natural to me as the one I made with the Shure SM57. The NT2A voiceprint retained a lot more of that "buzzy" electric-ish sound than the SM57 voiceprint. Kind of puzzling, as I would have expected the NT2A voiceprint to be even more natural than the SM57 voiceprint.



There sure is a lot of "black box" quality to this device. I wish I understood exactly what the app is doing in the microphone-to-pickup comparison, and the processing of the differences into a voiceprint. The lesson learned so far is that it is VERY dependent on the microphone used, whether the microphone is that of different model phones or different external microphones.



As a side note, the voiceprint does not seem to be very dependent on the placement of the microphone, which I consider a positive, as the consistency takes some of the guesswork and worry out of microphone placement.

---

Yeah, surprising but not surprising with this modeling/printing/imaging technology.  I like the SM57 setting on the JD Aura better than a few of the multi-thousand dollar mic setting options.  Go figure..lol.

gzerninplatz - Posted - 09/06/2023:  09:51:38

In an interview I saw about Jerry's rig, he says that he also frequently uses the SM57 setting...go figure! He says he uses lower number settings to get more high end to cut through in crowded band situations....

countryboy - Posted - 10/11/2023:  18:59:11

Sorry a bit off topic, but it is related. Does any engineer types know where I could place a clean boost in the signal chain when using the JD Aura? Is it before or after the Aura? A related question is where can I put a passive Volume Pedal if I choose to use it instead of the Clean Boost? I am running some compression, Reverb, and delay after the Aura too.

hlpdobro - Posted - 10/12/2023:  07:04:00

I'd put clean boost at the end of your chain so you don't overdrive anything or negatively affect other pedals.



I'm not sure that I'd recommend a passive volume pedal but I'd try it immediately after the Aura to see if affects tone or ???.



Just one guy's .02



h

Edited by - hlpdobro on 10/12/2023 07:04:38