Mule - Posted - 04/02/2009:  18:56:50

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Probably old topic here, but has anyone builders experimented with "out of the ordinary" cone or spider materials, such as HPL wood veneers (maybe maple, spruce, maple, Carbon fiber, stainless steel, hybrid metalic materials such as brass and aluminum, or etch...or other materials that dont come to mind?

The reso guitar is very traditional in design that really hasnt changed alot, well it has in some degree, but I've not seen anything drastic in design changes...


anyway just curious.......

Mule

Mule - Posted - 04/03/2009:  06:08:01

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mule

Probably old topic here, but has anyone builders experimented with "out of the ordinary" cone or spider materials, such as HPL wood veneers (maybe maple, spruce, maple, Carbon fiber, stainless steel, hybrid metalic materials such as brass and aluminum, or etch...or other materials that dont come to mind?

The reso guitar is very traditional in design that really hasnt changed alot, well it has in some degree, but I've not seen anything drastic in design changes...


anyway just curious.......


Mule

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Well, In confident that most folks are traditional at heart, thus NO responses...haha.....and so am I, but Im just curious if the standard guitar (ie; spruce top, X braced) could be further advanced by a more wood sounding cone. Like a wood veneer based cone, perhaps stamped under steam, or something.......Would it be strong enough, and responsive enough, if built....?

MitchellB - Posted - 04/03/2009:  06:56:00

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I think there is a lot of room for experimentation in Resonator guitars by some innovative people that are able to think “out of the box!” We are often limited by our perception of what we think and others tell us are the only way to do something.

M i t c h e l l

Slideman1939 - Posted - 04/03/2009:  07:08:24

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Apparently (long ago) John Dopyera experimented with copper, brass, and various alloys that resulted in thunky/clunky sounds and minor magnification.Pure aluminum yields a sweet tone but not significant volume, so over the years various alloys of aluminum proved best--harder aircraft alloys with trace amounts of magnesium, chromiun, silicon, and copper.It's a subject where many have tried alternatives, for many years, always unsatisfactory, and always returned to aluminum alloy. In the 1930's there was a Bel-tone brand that had a cardboard composite cone--didn't work. I suppose it's like the subject of tone rings in banjos: there are certain acceptible limits ( alloys) for experimentation--but once you get into exotic materials it just doesn't work.

Mule - Posted - 04/03/2009:  08:14:04

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I can visualize where a cones material would have a balance point in which volume and tone are a trade off. As you said pure aluminum would have a sweeter tone but lacks in volume, (if I understood you correctly)

Not a pro by no means but, I've played reso's with solid maple, HPL maple, mahog and HPL mahog, and it seems like the cone has the primary influence on the tone and the guitars body material is second. Like my Dads old 60 sqare neck had a body that IMO couldnt have much influence on the tone as it was built like a tank truck......Gibson ES series guitars are a simular example.....The ES175 known as the "holy grail" of jazz is nothing but a stiff plywood box with really good pickups.....the box has a influence on the reverb travel length but the wood has little to do with it....or so I've read...

So here's another thought.....I used to have a pair of Klipsch LaScalla (spelling?) speakers that along with traditional speakers in the front, they had a second speaker large cone in the back that did not have a magnet and driver, but however its excitation was purely driven by the ibrations of front speakers. These speakers had a incredible tight and wide responsive tone, but did not have a deep dimension in thickness...say, 12'' so they didnt stick way out from the wall.....So not saying it would work on a reso guitar (second cone in the back) but it amazes me how someones thinking can influence tradition. Now they get really full speaker sounds out of much smaller box's.....incredible...

I totaly agree that to improve traditional has to be something exceptional in nature, but it doesnt hurt to think about the mechanics of these great instruments IMO

Tom Jr. - Posted - 04/09/2009:  05:44:22

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I lke the way you think Mule. Technology is always improving the way things can be made and thinking outside the box is how mankind has advanced throughout the ages. The world is not flat after all. A set of stacked cones could prove very interesting as could an actual speaker cone. A guy just built an entire car out of wood including wheels, suspension, an body as a college thesis project and he used all sorts of cutting edge laminate technology that wasn't formerly available.

Don''t squat with your spurs on.

geister - Posted - 05/06/2009:  00:58:52

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Hi Mule,
Just today I took possession of a resonator whose cone is made entirely of wood. I joined this forum for the purpose of finding out whether the builder who made mine is the only one to have solved the problem of how to do this. He has made three such instruments; the other two were made twenty years ago. I heard about him through a mutual friend, asked to play his original instrument and commissioned him to make one for me. If anyone else has a wooden-coned resonator, or knows about the existence of one other than mine (and the one belonging to this particular builder) I'd love to hear about it. (I am not writing about an aluminum-coned resonator with a wooden body. I am writing about a cone that is made entirely of wood.) Thanks to anyone who has any info about the existence of any other of these guitars.

Mule - Posted - 05/06/2009:  04:47:39

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quote:

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Originally posted by geister

Hi Mule,
Just today I took possession of a resonator whose cone is made entirely of wood. I joined this forum for the purpose of finding out whether the builder who made mine is the only one to have solved the problem of how to do this. He has made three such instruments; the other two were made twenty years ago. I heard about him through a mutual friend, asked to play his original instrument and commissioned him to make one for me. If anyone else has a wooden-coned resonator, or knows about the existence of one other than mine (and the one belonging to this particular builder) I'd love to hear about it. (I am not writing about an aluminum-coned resonator with a wooden body. I am writing about a cone that is made entirely of wood.) Thanks to anyone who has any info about the existence of any other of these guitars.

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Wow, tell me more about the cone, and more about the sound, tone, volume....please bring it on....!!!!!!

geister - Posted - 05/06/2009:  11:22:25

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Hi Mule,
I just got off the phone with my builder friend. I asked him how much information about his instrument I could share, thinking that he might want to protect his "trade secrets" as regards manufacturing and construction technique and anything else that might need a patent.
We both agreed, of course, about the need for him to protect his interests. He said that he wasn't sufficiently knowledgeable about that end of the business to be able to answer my question today, but he would get back to me soon, after he discussed the matter with a friend of his who did know something about this stuff.
So, I'll get back to you with more details as soon as I get the go-ahead from him.
My opinion is that this instrument is a winner and, given the right conditions, could well find its way into the standard guitar arsenal (as opposed to being relegated to the museum of musical curiosities.) My friend will be very busy with his day job for the next couple of months, but he plans on getting up a website soon, with pics and sound clips, to gauge interest in his instrument. If there is sufficient interest from prospective buyers, he will go ahead and make more of these instruments.
I applaud his caution and, look forward to sharing more about this instrument here and elsewhere. It shouldn't be long before he'll be letting the cat out of the bag.
I can begin to answer the specific questions you asked:

The cone is made entirely of sitka spruce. (More details about the cone later.)
The guitar sounds best (it sounds wonderful!) when played with finger picks.
Tone is a hard thing to describe, but I played it at a music store yesterday, while buying a case for it, and several other guitarists agreed with me that it sounded like a traditional resonator, if a bit more mellow, with some banjo-like qualities. (I know that not all resonators sound the same, that there are many things that influence the sound, so my description (or anyone's description of a sound) leaves something to be desired.)
The volume is very good when playing the guitar with finger picks.

I'll be back with more info when I can. I am very excited about this guitar and look forward to sharing more about it.

Cheers,
Garry

Mule - Posted - 05/06/2009:  15:18:12

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quote:

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Originally posted by geister

Hi Mule,
I just got off the phone with my builder friend. I asked him how much information about his instrument I could share, thinking that he might want to protect his "trade secrets" as regards manufacturing and construction technique and anything else that might need a patent.
We both agreed, of course, about the need for him to protect his interests. He said that he wasn't sufficiently knowledgeable about that end of the business to be able to answer my question today, but he would get back to me soon, after he discussed the matter with a friend of his who did know something about this stuff.
So, I'll get back to you with more details as soon as I get the go-ahead from him.
My opinion is that this instrument is a winner and, given the right conditions, could well find its way into the standard guitar arsenal (as opposed to being relegated to the museum of musical curiosities.) My friend will be very busy with his day job for the next couple of months, but he plans on getting up a website soon, with pics and sound clips, to gauge interest in his instrument. If there is sufficient interest from prospective buyers, he will go ahead and make more of these instruments.
I applaud his caution and, look forward to sharing more about this instrument here and elsewhere. It shouldn't be long before he'll be letting the cat out of the bag.
I can begin to answer the specific questions you asked:

The cone is made entirely of sitka spruce. (More details about the cone later.)
The guitar sounds best (it sounds wonderful!) when played with finger picks.
Tone is a hard thing to describe, but I played it at a music store yesterday, while buying a case for it, and several other guitarists agreed with me that it sounded like a traditional resonator, if a bit more mellow, with some banjo-like qualities. (I know that not all resonators sound the same, that there are many things that influence the sound, so my description (or anyone's description of a sound) leaves something to be desired.)
The volume is very good when playing the guitar with finger picks.

I'll be back with more info when I can. I am very excited about this guitar and look forward to sharing more about it.

Cheers,
Garry

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Think of this....put yourself in the late 20's and all you know is F hole archtop guitars or classicals....and then you hear talk of a resonator guitar with a speaker in it........Most folks reaction would be, Oh I bet that will never work, or something negative.....with their head in the sand..

Now put yourself in today, and resonators have been with the same basic design for 75 years....with a few select folks that have greatly improved them, but still in the same design basics that always have been there......along with other guitar designs, I think the sky is the limit. Only with someones imagination can we go further.....I really like tradition and its culture and fellowship that it brings....BUT, .I'd like to see a resonator that sounds like a mellow nylon string sound but with enough volume to make banjo's run and hide...and I believe it can be done with the right combination of materials and design

geister - Posted - 05/06/2009:  21:22:25

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Mule,
You're right. The sky's the limit when it comes to imagining things. I feel fortunate to have run into this particular builder/artist. On the other hand, as I was sitting playing his instrument he was telling me how happy he was to hear someone play the thing he'd made, that for him, that was the reward.
Later, I was guessing what it was going to take for this (or any) instrument to find its way into some kind of mainstream: My friend, the builder, is going to have to get his business act together. He already has a first rate wood shop and the skill to use it. But he still needs to do the business part- the financing and promoting ends of things. He's going to have to find five to ten customers who are willing to go out on the limb with him by commissioning guitars for themselves. He's going to have to try to get an instrument into the hands of a player or two who have sufficient fan bases that the players' fans are going to want an instrument because some fine musician or other has shown everybody else the possibilities inherent in the instrument, to give it their blessing, so to speak, and so on.......
It's a wonderful world. Complex.

geister - Posted - 05/07/2009:  20:05:03

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Mule,
I spoke again to my builder/friend on the phone this evening. He was excited to hear that there was some response here to my post about a wooden-coned resonator. He is gearing up to build five more of these instruments, and he has a friend with whom he's working on rolling this out in a way that engenders interest in the instrument and protects his rights as the originator of the process whereby he builds these.
Of course my builder friend has a name. His name is Jeff Jamieson. He runs a high-end woodworking shop in San Luis Obispo, California. Coincidentally, his property backs up to the same railroad track that runs by the National Reso-phonic factory. I'm guessing the two shops are no more than two miles from each other.
Jeff will be putting up a website pretty soon. (He's going to London next week for a couple of weeks. He told me that he'd get going on the website as soon as he got back.) In the meantime, he recommended that I post a picture of the guitar at this site. It's here:
resohangout.com/myhangout/phot...albumid=0 in my photo album. I hope to find time next week to record some sound examples of the instrument, and I'll put those up as soon as I can.
Cheers,
Garry

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Edited by - geister on 05/07/2009 20:06:17

Spikey - Posted - 05/13/2009:  21:10:11

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Garry,
I am good friends with Jeff and have been working on this concept with him over the last twenty some years. I own what I thinks is number 2 maybe 1? who knows. Mine is mahogany. I have played your new guitar and can't imagine that your anything but thrilled. It's interesting to read the thread below because it really boils down to being a different instrument. It's directional like the biscuit cone but beyond that I think it's a different beast. The rich overtones are fantastic. I can't wait to hear your recordings. Enjoy it, yours is the breakthrough.

Pat Piette

geister - Posted - 05/14/2009:  07:12:56

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Hi Pat,
Jeff mentioned you, and I look forward to meeting you someday. I am thrilled, indeed, to have Jeff's new guitar! I think it's a great instrument, and I feel lucky to have it. I have played and even made a recording with the older of Jeff's wooden-coned guitars, the one that is in his possession, and I agree that mine is the breakthrough. I've been working on some things to record with it and may get around to it next week. I have a couple of big shows coming up in LA that have been requiring all of my attention, but by the second week of June, I will have cleared the decks and will get to it then, at the latest. I look forward to hearing more about your role in the development of this instrument.

Thanks for getting in touch.

Garry