Best for you or best for me?

My favorite is the shockwaves.

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Originally posted by hlpdobro

Best for you or best for me?

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Good  comment by Howard. Since different  bridge inserts are actually something  many experienced players can hear if they concentrate, it's difficult to say like the guitars  themselves which is "best" since it comes down to personal preference. 

Since my main guitar has the Fishman Nashville inserts for the purpose of plugging in at times, I have no choice in the matter. 

If I remember correctly  Tim Scheerhorn had two versions of composite topped maple inserts. I had the earlier  version in my  Clinesmith for several years. I had brought the guitar to Todd for some work and he thought  I would like the sound. It replaced the original ebony capped maple. Then on another trip to the  Clinesmith shop several years ago Todd told me on newer guitars he was building that he'd gone back to the ebony  capped maple. Go figure. 

One thing I have been curious about but have never come across in any discussions is if someone has compared the Scheerhorn composite inserts that can still  be purchased from Elderly vs. the Beard Shockwave which also is a composite material over maple and is all the rage these days (if something can actually qualify as a "rage" in the resophonic guitar world). 

I have kind of wondered about this.

The composite insert is made of two different pieces of wood held together with glue. Three different layers. Sound transmission thru three layers? Two physics teachers thought the layers might make a difference. Sound transmission is a physics thing.

I have guitars with 100 year old hard maple inserts.

Removed the inserts because my luthier does not like them.

Actually in the case of the Scheerhorn insert, "composite" refers to a man made material on top rather than wood.

In checking the Beard site, Paul doesn't use the term composite, he goes with synthetic. 

Either way - both are man made materials over a maple base. 

There are also plenty of inserts consisting  of one material only. 

Lawrence, I'm guessing  your luthier who doesn't like the 100 year old maple inserts is Frank Harlow. 

Since these have been removed, it begs the question - what do you have instead? 
 

Frank Harlow doesn't like 100 year-old maple inserts? News to me - that's what he put in mine.

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Originally posted by badger

Frank Harlow doesn't like 100 year-old maple inserts? News to me - that's what he put in mine.

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Maybe Lawrence is referring to a different luthier?  Surely he'll let us know when he's back on here - he posted recently about another guy in Ohio who knows how to do a setup. 

My first dobro, which I owned for about 3 months, back in 1963, was a Regal. Van Stoneman leveled the spider for me and put metal inserts made from the blade of a butcher knife. It sounded incredible! I don't recall how they were held in place. I traded this dobro for an alleged prewar Mastertone banjo, and didn't play the dobro again until about 3 years ago. Now I'm using shockwave inserts on my Appy, and I like the way it sounds.

Frank is not a fan of composite.

He uses old maple as I remember.

Many thanks to all of you who posted comments on this subject.
The 'inserts' post has a lot of questions answered but still it remains a very technical topic.
Ever a roller bridge which I have on my SlideKIng reso together with a roller nut produces a very pleasant sound. Stationary bridge inserts would not work in this situation. It's like the Hip-Shot lever which changes the G tuning to the D tuning. Just sayin'...

I made the inserts on the resos I have built from hard maple, and I think maybe persimmon on the last one.

Frank Harlow uses Solid Maple which is over 100 years old from a piano soundboard for inserts in  his guitars. Think about the aspect of all the years that Piano maple had been played,.....=) . Materials matter.

I had Ebony inserts in a reso from another maker,  (pre Harlow). It had ebony capped maple inserts which cracked 4  weeks after I got the guitar. I took it to Frank, watched him make the bridge inserts from scratch and set up the guitar transforming that guitar sound very close to "The Harlow Sound". Sold that guitar to a player from Texas at IBMA in KY, 20 minutes after I took it out of the case, Buyer asked LeRoy Mack to play it. LeRoy had it for 90 minutes. Mr. Mack is a swell gentleman. All of my Harlow Guitars except one, have original set ups in them and sound like the day I got them. I pick as hard as anyone when needed. One unit had a slight crack in the bass side of the 100 year old insert and Frank happened to noticed that during a visit to him, and installed a new one. Aside from that, I have never needed  any adjustments period in Franks guitars in a span of 22 years and counting.  He makes killer flattop guitars also. I have #5. 

Future Point of interest: I am editing a 2nd Documentary about Frank which should come out some time later this year. It should be another fun look into the world of his wonderful instruments.

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Originally posted by resotom
Stationary bridge inserts would not work in this situation. It's like the Hip-Shot lever which changes the G tuning to the D tuning. Just sayin'...

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The HipShot recommends a roller nut but not a roller bridge. Use the bridge of your choice. 
 

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Originally posted by AK Slider

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Originally posted by resotom
Stationary bridge inserts would not work in this situation. It's like the Hip-Shot lever which changes the G tuning to the D tuning. Just sayin'...

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The HipShot recommends a roller nut but not a roller bridge. Use the bridge of your choice. 
 

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Right - you'd be SOL if you wanted to have a guitar with both a Nashville pickup and the DoubleShot. 

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Originally posted by MarkinSonoma

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Originally posted by AK Slider

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Originally posted by resotom
Stationary bridge inserts would not work in this situation. It's like the Hip-Shot lever which changes the G tuning to the D tuning. Just sayin'...

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The HipShot recommends a roller nut but not a roller bridge. Use the bridge of your choice. 
 

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Right - you'd be SOL if you wanted to have a guitar with both a Nashville pickup and the DoubleShot. 

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You'd be UTCWAP!

That too...

Just checked my Lebada (sic). Just has plain maple-unsure of the age. I've had ebony topped maple in a couple of previously owned resos . Even though more expensive as some of them were-this one sounds better-no I'm not going to change just to see what happens. It works good as is......

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Originally posted by McPickin

Frank Harlow uses Solid Maple which is over 100 years old from a piano soundboard for inserts in  his guitars. Think about the aspect of all the years that Piano maple had been played,.....=) . Materials matter.

Materials do matter, but piano soundboards, as with other stringed instruments, are made from spruce. Maple would be too stiff and hard. It may be from other parts of the piano, but its main benefit would be that it's well seasoned.

Looking forward to the new Frank Harlow documentary, Dan. Please let us know when available.

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Originally posted by miktavus

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Originally posted by McPickin

Frank Harlow uses Solid Maple which is over 100 years old from a piano soundboard for inserts in  his guitars. Think about the aspect of all the years that Piano maple had been played,.....=) . Materials matter.

Materials do matter, but piano soundboards, as with other stringed instruments, are made from spruce. Maple would be too stiff and hard. It may be from other parts of the piano, but its main benefit would be that it's well seasoned.

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MikTavus, Thanks for your feedback. 

Gene Wooten (you've heard of him right???) played Franks guitars and went around the world a couple of times  playing with The Osborn Brothers, with Goldie, a Walnut Harlow, One of several Harlow's Gene had. Goldie, by the way still has the same set up it had when Frank made it. Ive personally logged quite a few hours playing it. Probably more than Jerry Douglas did when he had Gene set up his famous guitar quite often. Gene set up guitars in Nashville for folks, but took his own guitars to Frank Harlow to set up. Goldie still has the Maple inserts from said maple piano soundboard. Here is the facts: Gene and Frank were talking one day discussing dobros. Gene suggested to Frank that he go find a maple sound board from a piano and use is for his bridges. To this day, that is what Frank uses. Frank went to a piano graveyard, and searched through many, many, many pianos. Seriously many! Finally he found one that did in fact, have a maple sound board. So to tell you, yes they do make pianos with soundboards other than spruce. Perhaps not in your country but they do or have here.  I have handled wood from that same soundboard myself. My Harlow's like all the others, (unless a customer requested otherwise) has said Maple inserts from said piano. Age is a factor in the wood, the quality of the wood, and also the fact it existed as a piano in one earlier lifetime, vibrating with tones is another factor. There are a couple of brands of guitar tone conditioners out on the market which in fact vibrate an instrument to either wake it up or further condition insturments. I had one called a Tonerite 3g and witnessed it work on a couple of my flat top guitars. Some folks blare loud speakers at guitars as an alternate way of conditioning guitars to affect them differently. The point being is the total effect of the wood, aging and previous vibrating life as another instrument do contribute to an overall effect. The sum of how everything Frank produces from years of experience, how he has tested and designed, to the materials he uses is  why his instruments sound like they do. I don't know how many instruments you have built but I'm pretty sure your knowledgeable otherwise you would not offer your insight. I'm just offering my opinion and facts as I have lived and learned from my friend Frank Harlow. If you watch my documentary theres a segment and footage on it about Gene's guitar Goldie which you may enjoy watching.  

Regards,
Dan

When you release the lever to change the tuning from G to D with a DoubleShot HipShot, apparently there is very little string movement on the bridge that would entail using a roller nut much like a pedal steel would. Is that correct?

Back to the metal insert mentioned above. My 30s Radiotone with Schireson cone has a metal insert, but I don't know if it's original. Anyone else with a Schireson? Is the insert metal or wood? It has a neat distinctive sound, but that may be the cone.

I haven't been able to find any mention of a piano that has used anything other than a soft wood, mostly spruce for the soundboard, much like flat top guitars but it certainly is possible, if rare. Steinway uses rock maple for the rim and there are very interesting discussions of various tonewoods and their impact on the total sound of a piano that is a parallel to our discussions here. I have about 60 feet of old intact bowling alley maple that probably has some very unique characteristics because of the heavy balls rolling miles upon miles over them. Maybe one day I will make some inserts and see how they sound. I have also heard of osage orange (hedge apple) being used for inserts. If memory serves me correctly, Kent Schoonover used that periodically. Sullivan Banjos had some old maple from a 150 year old factory floor in the northeast that had industrial equipment driving over it. They made bridges for banjos and mandolins and I talked them out of enough to make a couple inserts but it's been so long I forget how it turned out.

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Originally posted by Tom Jr.

I haven't been able to find any mention of a piano that has used anything other than a soft wood, mostly spruce for the soundboard, much like flat top guitars but it certainly is possible, if rare. Steinway uses rock maple for the rim and there are very interesting discussions of various tonewoods and their impact on the total sound of a piano that is a parallel to our discussions here. I have about 60 feet of old intact bowling alley maple that probably has some very unique characteristics because of the heavy balls rolling miles upon miles over them. Maybe one day I will make some inserts and see how they sound. I have also heard of osage orange (hedge apple) being used for inserts. If memory serves me correctly, Kent Schoonover used that periodically. Sullivan Banjos had some old maple from a 150 year old factory floor in the northeast that had industrial equipment driving over it. They made bridges for banjos and mandolins and I talked them out of enough to make a couple inserts but it's been so long I forget how it turned out.

Thanks for that, supporting my original comment. I think that the scrap piano, referred to in this discussion, had been thrown away for a very good reason. It would have sounded absolutely dreadful. Maple has its place in an acoustic instrument, but not as a soundboard.

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Originally posted by MarkinSonoma

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Originally posted by hlpdobro

Best for you or best for me?

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Good  comment by Howard. Since different  bridge inserts are actually something  many experienced players can hear if they concentrate, it's difficult to say like the guitars  themselves which is "best" since it comes down to personal preference. 

Since my main guitar has the Fishman Nashville inserts for the purpose of plugging in at times, I have no choice in the matter. 

If I remember correctly  Tim Scheerhorn had two versions of composite topped maple inserts. I had the earlier  version in my  Clinesmith for several years. I had brought the guitar to Todd for some work and he thought  I would like the sound. It replaced the original ebony capped maple. Then on another trip to the  Clinesmith shop several years ago Todd told me on newer guitars he was building that he'd gone back to the ebony  capped maple. Go figure. 

One thing I have been curious about but have never come across in any discussions is if someone has compared the Scheerhorn composite inserts that can still  be purchased from Elderly vs. the Beard Shockwave which also is a composite material over maple and is all the rage these days (if something can actually qualify as a "rage" in the resophonic guitar world). 

 

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I have had the Scheerhorn inserts and the Shockwaves in the same guitar. A few of the Scheerhorns I've bought have been set up with Shockwave inserts and Legend cones. I swapped out the cones for Scheerhorn cones, but I could not swap the inserts since I didn't have any that were cut. I got Scheerhorn inserts when I sent the guitars to Tim to set up. That being said, I was curious as to what the real difference would be between Tim's inserts and the Shockwaves. I did a lot of comparisons between guitars of the same wood, same build, same cone, etc. except the Shockwaves and I could most definitely tell a difference. The Shockwaves seemed to accentuate the high end too much for me. They were more pronounced on the high end and maybe on the bottom but to my ears and in my guitars, it gave an edgier sound than the Scheerhorns. For example, I had 3 maple guitars all set up the same with the Scheerhorn inserts and those three shared the same qualities and they were all different than the one maple I had with the Shockwaves. 

This was the same on my rosewood spruce guitars as well. It wasn't something that was just limited to maple. I tried virtually the same A/B comparisons with the R/S guitars. Same result. Too bright and too brittle sounding for my taste. 

Once I got the guitars set up by Tim and had the inserts swapped, the guitars all had the same underlying tone. There was no obvious difference with a push to the high end. 

Like Howard said....best for who? For me, it's a no-brainer. I like Scheerhorns and I only prefer them to be set up by Tim with his inserts and cone. To me, that is the best sounding resophonic guitar there is. And that's how everybody should feel about their instrument.

I didn't start with a Scheehorn; I've had many different builds. It was always about finding what spoke to me and eventually I did. That's not to disparage anybody else's build. Far from it. The only guitar I owned that was poorly built and completely constructed wtihout love or care was my Gibson OAI Dobro D60. That guitar was built so sloppily that it made me sad.  I think I got my first Scheerhorn from Steve Toth and I wish I still had it. One strum across the strings and I knew I'd found what I was looking for. There's a lot of experimenting that goes into finding what speaks to you.