I just installed the Hipshot Double Shot. It is recommended by all those with extensive resonator experience to use roller nuts and also locking tuners. I did all, and it sounds great. I had to craft an aluminum shim to go under the roller nuts. I also put in the Nashville (Aura) bridge and wired it.

I’ve noticed a trend that guitar techs and non-resonator experienced luthiers tend to come to up with inaccurate opinions on the hipshot set up for dobros. Pay special attention to advice given by those with the most experience, such as the advice given by the techs at Beard Guitars. They have arguably installed more than anyone.

The locking tuners and roller nuts have as much to do with tuning stability as they do with string breakage. When flipping from D to G, the tuning on mine stays perfect. 

And small tip, cut a piece of felt to fit where the Hipshot overlaps the cover plate. I cut mine from a felt cocktail coaster.

I have Hipshot DoubleShots (and roller nuts and locking tuners) installed on 3 resonators.

Unequivocally, there is no negative impact to sustain in my instances. If anything, I have more sustain.

The tuning stability is rock solid.

Many (including myself) find that the added mass of metal due to the tailpiece and roller nut brings the instrument alive with more overtones. If you want to tame some of that, use rubber grommets between the bridge and tailpiece (see photos), and/or some type of damping method between the nut and tuners.

One cautionary note. Not sure if the roller nut is a drop-in on the Clinesmith. On my Scheerhorn, it was not. On my Beard, it was. So you may have some shimming or trimming to do. Perhaps someone with a Clinesmith can weigh in - couldn't tell if Lounge was referencing a Clinesmith install or not.

Like Lounge, I've learned to dismiss much of what traditional guitar techs advise with regards to resonators. It's a specialty niche, and resonator specialists are the best source.

Good luck!

I did my install on a Rob Ickes model “Frugalhorn” Wechter/Scheerhorn that I bought from Rob nearly 20 years ago.
I had to cut a piece of aluminum stock to go under the Roller nut assembly, which I did with a hacksaw and flat file on a vise. If I can figure out posting pics here, I’ve included them

Brooks aka "Lounge," I'm curious to know what the string height is at the roller nut on the frugal'horn.

Mark, before or after install?
After install the height is dictated by the metal ledge built into the roller nut assembly, that rests on the fret board.

In other words, when installing the roller nut assembly properly, it will always be the same height, regardless of guitar. Routing the nut slot or shimming may be required on various guitar builds.

I can get back to you later with measurements.

And I should add, the roller nut assembly is held in place with two pins (the thickness of a large sewing needle) that drop into the assembly and into the peghead. Drilling is required--and in my case through the aluminum shim, into the peghead.

Mark,
Hasty measurement: The bone nut that came with the guitar provides a string height of 10mm, but the nut goes deeper into the peghead (the routed slot).

The roller nut assembly from Doubleshot has a string height of 14mm , but does not extend to the bottom of the routed slot, because of the ledge built into the nut, hence the need for an aluminum shim on my guitar.

Make sense?

And regarding locking tuners: I went with D'Addario tuners, which I find to be excellent.

Millimeters? You’re killin' me here!

As a longtimer avid cyclist I'm often forced to deal in millimeters  since a lot of that world has a history if being connected to European measurements, but I tend to steer clear otherwise. And the minimal work I do on cars nowadays can force me to go metric. 
 

So I had to convert:

10 mm = 0.394 in 

14 mm = 0.55 in

To clarify, depending on the guitar string height at the nut from the fretboard can vary from 3/8 in (0.375 in) to 1/2 in, and modern resos tend to be the 1/2 in measurement.

i was curious about it because a couple years back I was checking out the Hipshot site for the height of the DoubleShot roller nut for future reference and I came up empty. 

Mark, I’m too stew-pid to read inches and 8th’s, 16th’s, and 32nd’s on my little luthier ruler. MM’s are like counting fingers ;-)

I also have one on a Wechter-Scheerhorn (Byrl Murdock did the installation)...I went for the steampunk black look :)

I get almost exactly 1/2" on the string height with roller nut. The strings sit up on the metal roller wheels, as you can see in the photo.

I believe the standard Scheerhorns (pre roller nut) were closer to 3/8" height. I could be wrong. But subjectively, all my resonators now feel more like a standard Beard height (closer to 1/2") after installing roller nuts.

This one needed a shim (being a Scheerhorn spec) - as did my National Scheerhorn, which I have since sold. The shim may or not be visible in photo, as the shim is also black.

Need to amend my comments on National Scheerhorn string height at nut. As I recall (and seemingly validated by a quick search), the original height was approx 7/16”. In any event, installing the roller nut brought that up a smidge to approx 1/2”, same as my other DoubleShot / roller nut equipped resonators.

Thanks very much for the thoughtful and very informative responses. I guess the question I still have, is whether or not a mechanical construct of axis and rollers will or will not produce less sustain than a bone nut. Many people make a significant issue about the importance of bone over various plastics in a nut for sustain, but I have no idea how critical this particular junction of string to body connection really matters.

The point the guitar tech makes relates to Telecaster roller bridges, something which he has a lot of experience with, but he has no experience with Hipshot tailpieces at all. Mine was the first he had ever seen. But the logic of it makes sense and there are a lot more Telecasters out in the world than Hipshot equipped resonator guitars.

I must say I have had tuning issues with the Hipshot system set up, without a roller nut or locking tuners. But I have less problems with the Clinesmith set up this way than with my ’67 Gretsch with a Bigsby, which has similar mechanics, but the Hipshot does need fussing with.

Tuning stability is particularly important when performing in front of an audience, and the Hipshot requires two levels of tuning, one with the headstock machines, and one with the little knurled buttons on the Hipshot, when it is engaged. So a certain amount of fiddling seems built in. Do you guys find this to be true, or is the system rock solid once tuned, in your experience?

It is encouraging to me that nobody noticed any kind of sustain loss with the roller bridge on their resonator guitars. And a Telecaster and a resonator guitar are two significantly different species of guitar in many ways.

Thanks again for the comments.

Robert,
My guitar sounds so much better and louder now, but I also installed a new Scheerhorn cone. I really don’t know if the rollers improve the sound & sustain, but they certainly don't hurt.  I do know that my two pedal steels also have roller nuts, and they have sustain on steroids.

Regarding tuning: Once the guitar is acclimated, I’ve found it to be amazingly stable—every bit as much as it was pre-Hipshot.

And as you’ve undoubtedly noticed, you tune with peghead tuners with the lever open in D, then close the lever for G, don’t touch the peghead tuners, use the little knobs on the Hipshot (which requires, for me, open the lever, making micro adjustments, then closing the lever and checking).

I’m amazed at the stabilty—which I believe is due to the roller nuts and locking tuners.

I concur, the tuning stability is rock solid. There is very little fiddling once a string set is broken in. No more so than a non-DoubleShot resonator.

I believe the roller nut and locking tuners are a big part of this equation.

I also use pencil graphite on the bridge saddle slots (applied every few months or so) to keep a good glide.

As far as tone and sustain…honestly, it’s really good on mine. No degradation, and louder overall. YMMV.

There is an argument to be made that the metal nut rollers give better tone match to a “fretted” (with metal tone bar) note. So that a combination of open and barred notes with a roller nut gives better consistency than a bone / metal combination roll. My ears aren’t good enough to detect it if so, but logic seems to make sense, and I’ve heard others make the argument.

Here's my experience:

No detriment in sustain with the Doubleshot installed.  I've had it on a cherry Tom Warner Appalachian, Beard Odyssey, and Scheerhorn #479.

Roller nut is essential.  Locking tuners are nice and were an improvement over the Grover Sta-tites on the Appy.  I found with good string winding, the non locking Waverlies on the Odyssey and the Gotohs on the 'Horn are sufficiently stable.  Once everything is well seated, I get consistent tuning shifts.

The roller nut  was an exact fit on the Beard - no surprise, as Beard and Hipshot teamed up on the design.  Both the Apply and 'Horn had a gap below the nut that I filled with one layer of veneer.  On the Appy, the nut slot was too narrow and needed to be routed at the peghead.  On the 'Horn, the thickness of the roller nut was just larger than the nut slot; I filed a bevel onto the outside bottom edge of the nut (using a popsicle stick as a shim to create the bevel) to prevent modifying the 'Horn - a little Steinway Touch-Up Kit (a.k.a. black Sharpie) on the filed end and good to go.

So whether the roller nut is a drop-in depends on the fretboard thickness and the nut slot thickness.

One caveat for those who are interested in roller nut dimensions:

GOOD NEWS: Hipshot links to a dimensional drawing of the roller nut on the website.

BAD NEWS: The drawing doesn't match with the actual dimensions of the two roller nuts I've purchased.

WORSE NEWS: The otherwise very helpful Hipshot customer service has not responded to 5 emails over 7 months about this query. So I have no idea if the drawing is wrong, or if they've changed the dimensions since the older roller nuts.

I hate when that happens. Before I buy another roller nut, I'd really like to know what I'm getting.

For your reference, this is a markup with the dimensional discrepancies circled. If anyone happens to have a new roller nut and calipers/micrometer, feel free to share your measurements.

I have the DoubleShot on my Scheerhorn L Body. Tim did the installation and found no negative issues with tone, commenting that if anything it had more sustain. He did say however that the string length behind the bridge is different and creates some unwanted overtones that can be muted with three rubber grommets placed in between the strings. I find the tuning very stable after the strings settle in. No constant fiddling or retuning necessary. I am one of the few disciples of the Shubb capo and the stock configuration fit my 7/16” string height perfectly before the roller nut, but now the height is a full 1/2”. Shubb will provide a part for the capo to fit the higher action and it works great on my Horn.

Greg - I'm confused - I thought you bought a Nati-horn for the purpose of having Tim install a DoubleShot on the guitar.

Are you saying that you have since added the device to your "A" Game Tim-built Scheerhorn?

 

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Originally posted by MarkinSonoma

Greg - I'm confused - I thought you bought a Nati-horn for the purpose of having Tim install a DoubleShot on the guitar.

Are you saying that you have since added the device to your "A" Game Tim-built Scheerhorn?

 

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Yes I did both. I had Tim install it at RS '22. If you've watched this video you've seen it in action. 
https://youtu.be/81M7wLfDDn0?si=uWynF3ViksenWcFU

Greg, I went back and watched the video. It might be "memory fade." I'm trying to recall the last time I saw you live with Kathy Kallick, I think Sandy was with me, and it seemed more recent to me than November 2022 when Tim would have added the DobuleShot @ ResoSummit, but with the years whizzing by I could be wrong. I don't recall the DoubleShot being on this guitar that last time at Freight & Salvage in Berzerkeley.

Watching the video now I'm concentrating on the grain on the guitar. When you created the video I might have had it in my head that it was the Nati-horn with the device so I was just paying attention to the music. 

I'm aware that the DoubleShot is reversible, though I guess some modification is required to fit the roller nut on a Scheerhorn - and maybe the locking tuners as well?

But years ago I was under the impression that you would never do anything as far modifications to your Tim-built 'horn. 

 

I know nothing about Clinesmith guitars but you may have to work the nut slot for the roller nut.

Concerning the locking tuners, I guess if you're going for the complete Hipshot pkg., might as well. [I don't know what the cost to upgrade to locking machines is.] I have one of these systems on an Adams, everything but the locking tuners and I do not have any instablility due to the lack of lockers.

They are the same type Hipshot machines that were on the guitar when I got it, just don't have the locking system. I like how smooth the action is with the roller nut and the Hipshot tuners. I'm just not sure the locking machines are a requirement.

I would guess that if you are good at stringing your guitar, of all the components recommended in the Hipshot kit, the locking tuners may be the least important.

But what I do know is that putting on new strings with the locking tuners make the tuning almost instantly stable, whereas on regular tuners there is often some stabilization time for the wraps to stretch and slip and settle.

Any possibility of string slipping or settling is obviously increased by the tension stretching and releasing by the lever moving the strings back and forth.

Locking tuners are pretty new to me and I’ve got them now on two guitars with Hipshot set ups, and I’m really impressed with them. Great inventions.

quote:

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Originally posted by MarkinSonoma

Greg, I went back and watched the video. It might be "memory fade." I'm trying to recall the last time I saw you live with Kathy Kallick, I think Sandy was with me, and it seemed more recent to me than November 2022 when Tim would have added the DobuleShot @ ResoSummit, but with the years whizzing by I could be wrong. I don't recall the DoubleShot being on this guitar that last time at Freight & Salvage in Berzerkeley.

Mark, I got the National and DoulbleShot in 2019. I made one video with it.

https://youtu.be/m-Ct1DYYTgc?si=s3uMXLAc1_thXOtH 

 I used the tailpiece at the very end lowering the E string to Eb and an Ebmaj7 chord of chimes. 
I toured with it with Kathy for a year or two but I missed performing with my A guitar and I wanted to use it in the studio while in Berkeley. So I had Tim do the work when we were together at RS 2022, the last time for both of us under the new management. The last time the KKB played the Berkeley BG fest was April 2024.

I'm aware that the DoubleShot is reversible, though I guess some modification is required to fit the roller nut on a Scheerhorn - and maybe the locking tuners as well?

But years ago I was under the impression that you would never do anything as far modifications to your Tim-built 'horn. 

I made the decision to have it installed in my Tim built guitar after assurances from other L Body installations and Tim himself that there were no negative issues. As I recall the tuners dropped right in but there may have been some minor work with the nut. I had Tim do it so what could go wrong? Nothing. :)
 

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Just as a follow up, I exchanged a note with the builder, Todd Clinesmith and his feeling was that the roller nut would effect sustain and probably tone too. So I think I will have the bone nut worked on, slots opened up and put some graphite or other guitar lube in. The tuning instability as it is now is not terrible, it just requires some tweaking, nowhere near as much trouble say as a Bigsby vibrato. I also do not have locking machines on the guitar because I don't like them. In any event, I think the Hipshot is a great device and I think we will dress the nut and pay a lot more attention to winding the strings. Thanks again for the comments.

quote:

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Originally posted by MarkinSonoma

Millimeters? You’re killin' me here!

As a longtimer avid cyclist I'm often forced to deal in millimeters  since a lot of that world has a history if being connected to European measurements, but I tend to steer clear otherwise. And the minimal work I do on cars nowadays can force me to go metric. 
 

 

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It's those damn disraeli gear ratios.

quote:

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Originally posted by daver

GOOD NEWS: Hipshot links to a dimensional drawing of the roller nut on the website.

BAD NEWS: The drawing doesn't match with the actual dimensions of the two roller nuts I've purchased.

I received a reply from Josh Borisoff (Hipshot).  They have republished the roller nut dimensional drawing with the correct dimensions.  The new drawing matches the parts I have:

https://docs.hipshotproducts.com/80310_RESONATOR_ROLLER_NUT_DIMENSIONS.pdf