Great question, Howard. I find myself falling into patterns based on chord positions when I'm improvising. I constantly need to push myself out of those chord pockets to come up with something different for each song.

I don't have this issue on banjo, but of course, chords and note patterns are different with frets :)

I find the best thing I can do to break out of a rut is to go around and around on the chord progression and try not to repeat myself. I'd love to hear how others approach improvising in G

I’ve always had more of a blues background than that of bluegrass. But my introduction to dobro was, like many of you, Auldridge, Douglas, Ickes, and so I started in G tuning. That’s where all the best instructing was. And I started sitting in with bluegrass players, who by nature, are generally a very sharing and patient group of folks to learn and play with.

But then I started messing with Vestapol tuning (open D), and it lends itself so well to blues, power chords, that 1st string as the “one” (instead of 5), and only one clam (the 3;-).

But now, the group of friends I play with do quite a bit of country, and I’m back with alot of G tuning because it works so well. And it definitely challenges my rusty brain.

So i have the Hipshot Double shot on my dobro which is such a great invention—choosing between tunings to suit the song. Players like Rob Ickes and Megan Lovell can play killer blues always in G tuning—but I appreciate the ability to switch back to Vestapol.

Like the old fashioned embroidered sofa pillow in my living room reads:
“If you can’t be the sharpest tool in the shed……you can always be the hoe”

and I apologize Howard, my response would be more suited to your “what’s your style thread” than this  G roadblock thread.

Can you articulate the G tuning challenges that led you to an alternate tuning?

The reason for the ask (def. not pointing any fingers) is that occasionally I'll encounter players that adopt alt tunings for strange reasons (imho).

I recall several players that resorted to the Hipshot just so they could play in the key of D and not realizing that the intervals were all different (1-3-5-1-3-50 vs. 1-5-3-1-5-1) and they couldn't play the same "shapes" and also not recognizing the key of D potential in standard dobro G tuning. (with and without a capo)

h

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Originally posted by PeterJ

I find the best thing I can do to break out of a rut is to go around and around on the chord progression and try not to repeat myself. I'd love to hear how others approach improvising in G

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This is why I love getting together with other dobro folks and just woodshed over a tune. Always interesting to get a glimpse of others' thought processes.

Broadly speaking, if it's a tune that I'm developing I first attempt to get a sense of style or mood. I might ask myself if this leans 'hardcore" bluegrass or something more subtle while being aware of key(s). The choices might be as simple as to capo/or not . Making use of closed positions vs. open strings.

Maybe there are choices to be made about choosing to play triads vs diads or single note phrases or extending chords to 6ths/9ths or even possible chord substitutions (prob not recommended for straight grass...You van never tell ;-)

See how you've opened a fascinating can o' worms??

h

Sure. .. here goes … I think open D or capo’d 2 to have open E lends itself for me to play blues a little more , for lack of a better word, intuitively. And yes sometimes that equates to sloppy too.
Which can work for blues.

Those Elmore James ‘Dust my broom’ type licks just kind of rattle off easily in open D. To play that song in G there is more potential for me to hit a couple clams. No doubt a solid G player could crush that song ……but it’s really easy in Vestapol.

G is much more a ‘complete’ tuning and it is rich and has it all, and I admire those that can navigate any style in (bluegrass) G.

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Originally posted by hlpdobro

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Originally posted by PeterJ

I find the best thing I can do to break out of a rut is to go around and around on the chord progression and try not to repeat myself. I'd love to hear how others approach improvising in G

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This is why I love getting together with other dobro folks and just woodshed over a tune. Always interesting to get a glimpse of others' thought processes.

Broadly speaking, if it's a tune that I'm developing I first attempt to get a sense of style or mood. I might ask myself if this leans 'hardcore" bluegrass or something more subtle while being aware of key(s). The choices might be as simple as to capo/or not . Making use of closed positions vs. open strings.

Maybe there are choices to be made about choosing to play triads vs diads or single note phrases or extending chords to 6ths/9ths or even possible chord substitutions (prob not recommended for straight grass...You can never tell ;-)

See how you've opened a fascinating can o' worms??

h

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Great topic!

I don’t see G tuning as limited at all - it’s incredibly versatile.

That said, I see Open D tuning offering a different tonal landscape. The lower register and natural D drones inspire different phrasing (for me) and opens up possibilities- particularly in some Celtic, modal, blues, and solo arrangements.

For me, it’s less about capability and more about what sparks musical creativity.

I play about 80% G tuning, 20% Open D tuning. I flip that Hipshot lever a fair amount :)

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Originally posted by JC Dobro

I don’t see G tuning as limited at all - it’s incredibly versatile.
I play about 80% G tuning, 20% Open D tuning. 

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So, within that 80% , how do you approach the neck for anything other than basic rhythm? (backup/solos). In addition to chordal/scale pockets are there particular right & left hand techniques that are second nature to you that you consistently rely on?

h

For me, it’s practice and musical aptitude. G tuning played with a bar is to me sort of like playing a harmonica. Those with skill have no problem working around what appears as limitations to others.

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Originally posted by hlpdobro

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Originally posted by JC Dobro

I don’t see G tuning as limited at all - it’s incredibly versatile.
I play about 80% G tuning, 20% Open D tuning. 

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So, within that 80% , how do you approach the neck for anything other than basic rhythm? (backup/solos). In addition to chordal/scale pockets are there particular right & left hand techniques that are second nature to you that you consistently rely on?

 

h

 

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Aside from basic rolls and chops for rhythm...

Syncopated and displaced rolls, open and closed position "go to" licks, forward and reverse slants (adjacent and split string), harmonics, half-step string pulls, rakes/rip strokes, Oswald-style tremolo, drone phrasing, chuck-style comping, closed triad inversions up and down the neck, triplets, closed chord "pads" behind vocals, vibrato variation, bar lift / staccato articulation, single string slidey stuff, blues flat-3 and flat-5 targeting, glissando phrasing into chord tones, "ghost"/ echo notes.  And probably some I'm forgetting :)

Some used sparingly, some probably over-used.  But all part of the "vocabulary" I'm constantly developing in G tuning.

Very informative thread, I wish I was experienced enough to participate!

I started the thread so you could ask questions.....

h

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Originally posted by JC Dobro

Syncopated and displaced rolls,

I'm uncertain about what a "displaced roll" is.

I will say that as I've aged, I've fallen back on to syncopated rolls a lot. I find them more interesting anyways and often easier to execute.

h

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Originally posted by hlpdobro

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Originally posted by JC Dobro

Syncopated and displaced rolls,

I'm uncertain about what a "displaced roll" is.

I will say that as I've aged, I've fallen back on to syncopated rolls a lot. I find them more interesting anyways and often easier to execute.

 

h

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Yes, more interesting and easier!  Probably my biggest cheat code for 140+ bpm songs :)

By "displaced" I mean placing the rhythmic emphasis of the roll (perceived downbeat) in a different place than you'd expect.  Same roll pattern, but rhythmically re-accented or started in a different place.

I should have also included partial rolls in my list. I use these a ton. Partial, syncopated rolls - musically interesting, and easy to execute (very helpful at fast tempo).

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Originally posted by hlpdobro

I started the thread so you could ask questions.....

h

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I'm currently practicing these G major scale rolls where you bar the notes on the 4th string and play a roll on the 1&3 open strings. As I work through the progression, the droning/ringing of the open strings sounds bad and I'm not sure how to quiet them. Should I be raising and lowering the left hand fingers behind the bar, or palm muting with the right hand? 

If I assess my own weaknesses, I can think of 2 issues that I constantly battle:

I'm a tone freak. I hear it in my head and try my hardest to keep it constant. I find that sometimes if I push hard I loose it and my tone becomes strident/pinched instead of "round". I must either make right hand adjustments or force myself to back off a tad.

Something else I acknowledge that I have a tendency to occasionally push the beat too much. It can be a great effect if used judiciously but overdone.... it just throws a wrench in the works. It's like Willie Nelson phrasing gone amuck :-)

h

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Originally posted by skydog

 

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I'm currently practicing these G major scale rolls where you bar the notes on the 4th string and play a roll on the 1&3 open strings. As I work through the progression, the droning/ringing of the open strings sounds bad and I'm not sure how to quiet them. Should I be raising and lowering the left hand fingers behind the bar, or palm muting with the right hand? 

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I'm uncertain exactly where you are rolling but, in general, if any string is louder (particularly if the open 1st string is the drone) it means that if it sounds like t-i-M..t-i-M..t-i-M      (t=thumb, i=index, m=middle...M=LOUD MIDDLE) it just sounds like you are over emphasizing that finger.

Since those rolls are usually played as tripletts muting probably is not the answer. You'll just work on more fluidity. It'll take time to even out the way you are attacking the strings.

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Originally posted by skydog

quote:

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Originally posted by hlpdobro

I started the thread so you could ask questions.....

h

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I'm currently practicing these G major scale rolls where you bar the notes on the 4th string and play a roll on the 1&3 open strings. As I work through the progression, the droning/ringing of the open strings sounds bad and I'm not sure how to quiet them. Should I be raising and lowering the left hand fingers behind the bar, or palm muting with the right hand? 

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For this roll, you want those #1 and #3 strings ringing.  It's one of those signature Dobro sounds.  Howard may have it nailed, check your pick attack/volume balance to make sure the top strings isn't getting higher decibels.

Basic thing, and sorry for asking, but are all your strings are in tune?  If you have open strings ringing out of tune, it will definitely sound "off" - very much so.

Are you noting the 4th string / 5th fret with the bar?  That's a G note, and your bar will need positioned so to it's in unison with the 3rd string open G note.  If you're a bit off, you have dissonance.  You can check this with a tuner.  If you're moving the bar to other fret positions (3rd fret, 2nd fret, etc) as part of the roll progression, likewise make sure the bar position is accurately sounding the desired note, not sharp or flat.

Just checking the basics.  Stick with it, it'll come!

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Originally posted by hlpdobro

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Originally posted by skydog

 

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I'm currently practicing these G major scale rolls where you bar the notes on the 4th string and play a roll on the 1&3 open strings. As I work through the progression, the droning/ringing of the open strings sounds bad and I'm not sure how to quiet them. Should I be raising and lowering the left hand fingers behind the bar, or palm muting with the right hand? 

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I'm uncertain exactly where you are rolling but, in general, if any string is louder (particularly if the open 1st string is the drone) it means that if it sounds like t-i-M..t-i-M..t-i-M      (t=thumb, i=index, m=middle...M=LOUD MIDDLE) it just sounds like you are over emphasizing that finger.

Since those rolls are usually played as tripletts muting probably is not the answer. You'll just work on more fluidity. It'll take time to even out the way you are attacking the strings.

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Playing the G scale on the fourth string, the others remain open.

One early roadblock was getting around two 3 strings for minor chords. But then I learned to do slants, and/or just play root & 5 strings, and/or a brief minor scale fill. Also, in a workshop Mike Auldridge noted that one can play scales/licks in the relative major (e.g., G for Em).

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Originally posted by wlgiii

One early roadblock was getting around two 3 strings for minor chords. But then I learned to do slants, and/or just play root & 5 strings, and/or a brief minor scale fill. Also, in a workshop Mike Auldridge noted that one can play scales/licks in the relative major (e.g., G for Em).

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In ensemble music it's almost never necessary to play all three notes in a chord. In the case of a minor chord chances are good that the minor 3rd note is gonna be covered by a rhythm guitar.

Yep the relative major key scales work with the associated minor keys although some minor scales may differ a bit (natural, melodic or harmonic). You're usually safe if you start/end a phrase on the root of the particular minor key!!

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Originally posted by skydog

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Originally posted by hlpdobro

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Originally posted by skydog

 

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I'm currently practicing these G major scale rolls where you bar the notes on the 4th string and play a roll on the 1&3 open strings. As I work through the progression, the droning/ringing of the open strings sounds bad and I'm not sure how to quiet them. Should I be raising and lowering the left hand fingers behind the bar, or palm muting with the right hand? 

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I'm uncertain exactly where you are rolling but, in general, if any string is louder (particularly if the open 1st string is the drone) it means that if it sounds like t-i-M..t-i-M..t-i-M      (t=thumb, i=index, m=middle...M=LOUD MIDDLE) it just sounds like you are over emphasizing that finger.

Since those rolls are usually played as tripletts muting probably is not the answer. You'll just work on more fluidity. It'll take time to even out the way you are attacking the strings.

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Playing the G scale on the fourth string, the others remain open.

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As others mentioned, it sounds like the challenge is hitting the strings with equal volume, or at least playing the two open strings with equal volume (you might want your thumb to hit harder, since that's where the melody is).

If that's the case, try playing much slower than usual, which lets you focus on every step of what you're doing. At a slow pace, you'll feel how hard you're hitting each string and you'll hear how accurate you are with the bar.

This is something I have to keep reminding myself -- slow it down to where I can play it cleanly, then speed it up to where it keeps pace with the song. 

Back to Howard- I'd rely on the other instruments in the circle to hit that third note in the chord. But luckily, after lots of practice it's no longer the issue it was. (Plus, I play mostly on E and C6 these days).